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Subject:
WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
Category: Relationships and Society > Religion Asked by: toughlover-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
02 Jun 2003 13:55 PDT
Expires: 02 Jul 2003 13:55 PDT Question ID: 212105 |
The example often offered of "U.L." are pets. Does anyone believe that if you starve and beat your pet, it will still love you? I gess if one were to beat the sences out of your kid such that he suffers amnesia he might still love you, but no animal form with atinture of cognition will exhibit love in return for cruelty. The Inventor of love Himself, so loved the world that he sent his only Begotten Son..., but the condition is that you "believe upon him". I believe this notion was promulgated by one of our DEVIANT HEDONISTS GROUPS who wanted to secure for themself acceptance regardless of their actions. |
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Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
Answered By: pinkfreud-ga on 02 Jun 2003 15:26 PDT Rated: |
Thank you for accepting my remarks as an answer to your question. Far from being Biblical, the term "unconditional love" was coined by Erich Fromm, an atheist: ..."unconditional love" has become a meaningless slogan of the Oprah/Jerry Springer world, a pseudo-insight sprayed over a banal commonplace. Coined by German psychoanalyst Erich Fromm in 1934, the concept was developed in his 1956 book, The Art Of Loving. Fromm naively believed that a father's love was always conditional - upon success, good behaviour, etc - while a mother's was unconditional, and couldn't be forfeited by sins or transgression. His ideas were refined in the 1960s by the humanist psychologist Carl Rogers, who suggested that therapists should try and offer their clients "unconditional positive regard". Through this unjudgmental acceptance, the client would integrate the unwanted parts of their personality and become more self-accepting. Guardian Unlimited http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,854257,00.html Another man who helped form modern psychology is Erick Fromm. It was from Fromm that we got the phrase "unconditional love." He rejected all forms of authoritarian government including God's. He portrayed the God of the Old Testament as a self-seeking authoritarian. He was an atheist and argued against the fundamentals of the Christian faith. He believed that man is the measure of all things. He did not oppose religion as long as it was subjective. He taught that a person must love himself, accept himself, and esteem himself in order to reach his highest potential. He did not see love as coming from outside himself. He said, "I am loved because I love." Fromm describes a truly religious person as one who does not pray for anything and does not expect anything from God. He says that a truly religious person does not love God as a child loves his father or his mother. And so from Fromm's point of view, faith in God is replaced by faith in self, and love for God is replaced by love for self. Revival Sermons http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/broken_cisterns.shtml My search for the origin of this phrase was simplified by the fact that I used to be an admirer of Erich Fromm, and I was aware that Fromm, not the Holy Bible, brought the term "unconditional love" into the world. Here is the search string that gave me the best results: Google Web Search: "erich fromm" "unconditional love" ://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22erich+fromm%22+%22unconditional+love This was an interesting subject, and I'm glad to have been able to help you find the source of the pernicious term "unconditional love." In my view, our society has been dealt a terrible blow by Fromm and his followers (which, I am sorry to say, included me, in earlier years, when I was indeed "pinko" politically.) I find it very disturbing that even ministers of the Gospel often promote this unBiblical notion. Best regards, pinkfreud |
toughlover-ga
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Thanks for the great research and elaberation on this question Pink Freud... when I win the latto I will "smoke you out and bring justice to you":) |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: thx1138-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:07 PDT |
toughlover-ga: "I believe this notion was promulgated by one of our DEVIANT HEDONISTS GROUPS who wanted to secure for themself acceptance regardless of their actions." It seems you might be absolutley correct............. "Scripture clearly teaches that God's love (phileo, agape, aheb, ahabah, etc.) is unfailing, undeserved, and unilateral (completely one-sided in initiation). But is God's love without condition--I.E.: UN-conditional? On this we should consider three things. 1) Where did this idea come from?...." "In fact, my best efforts point to the 1960s drug culture as the first time the words unconditional and love were put together in any language. (Please correct me if you can produce an example before the hippies coined the term, but so far nobody has; and my own research points to the LSD culture of the 1960s as the first use.)" http://www.acts17-11.com/cows_unlove.html Good luck in your quest... THX1138 |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: journalist-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:31 PDT |
I believe it was parents that thought it up. ;) |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:32 PDT |
Thanks for the feed-back Thx1138-ga, I did not know what you revealed, I just had a nawing feeling that the expression was a jonnycome lately and without merit. Now I hear even one of my favorite POTOS's, GW; employing this misnomer in his speaches. |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:43 PDT |
Far from being Biblical, the term "unconditional love" was coined by Erich Fromm, an atheist: ..."unconditional love" has become a meaningless slogan of the Oprah/Jerry Springer world, a pseudo-insight sprayed over a banal commonplace. Coined by German psychoanalyst Erich Fromm in 1934, the concept was developed in his 1956 book, The Art Of Loving. Fromm naively believed that a father's love was always conditional - upon success, good behaviour, etc - while a mother's was unconditional, and couldn't be forfeited by sins or transgression. His ideas were refined in the 1960s by the humanist psychologist Carl Rogers, who suggested that therapists should try and offer their clients "unconditional positive regard". Through this unjudgmental acceptance, the client would integrate the unwanted parts of their personality and become more self-accepting. http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,854257,00.html Another man who helped form modern psychology is Erick Fromm. It was from Fromm that we got the phrase "unconditional love." He rejected all forms of authoritarian government including God's. He portrayed the God of the Old Testament as a self-seeking authoritarian. He was an atheist and argued against the fundamentals of the Christian faith. He believed that man is the measure of all things. He did not oppose religion as long as it was subjective. He taught that a person must love himself, accept himself, and esteem himself in order to reach his highest potential. He did not see love as coming from outside himself. He said, "I am loved because I love." Fromm describes a truly religious person as one who does not pray for anything and does not expect anything from God. He says that a truly religious person does not love God as a child loves his father or his mother. And so from Fromm's point of view, faith in God is replaced by faith in self, and love for God is replaced by love for self. http://www.revivalsermons.org/sermons/broken_cisterns.shtml |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 14:54 PDT |
Great work El Pinko, re-constitute your comment into an answer and you have earned my 5 STARS... |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: kriswrite-ga on 02 Jun 2003 15:11 PDT |
<<<The Inventor of love Himself, so loved the world that he sent his only Begotten Son..., but the condition is that you "believe upon him".>>> Actually, that assumption is incorrect. The Bible does teach that God's love is unconditional...however, God loves us whether or not we believe in Him. kriswrite |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 16:53 PDT |
Thanks for the comment, KrisWrite, Show me, show me. Gimme chapter and verse. If you don't believe you have ho calim to eternal life, is the way I read it. Tell me what you have been smo, I mean reading? Tell me how much God loves the devel and when is the re-union. Much is hinging on your revelation to the world... |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: filian-ga on 02 Jun 2003 17:02 PDT |
"Thanks for the comment, KrisWrite, Show me, show me. Gimme chapter and verse. If you don't believe you have ho calim to eternal life, is the way I read it. Tell me what you have been smo, I mean reading? Tell me how much God loves the devel and when is the re-union. Much is hinging on your revelation to the world..." This comment sounds hostile. My opinion is that if we are talking about Christian God then believing that Jesus Christ died for our sins is the way to Paradise because it is through that sacrifice that we are cleansed of sins. Without believing that we are 1) sinful and 2) needed to be cleansed and 3) Jesus was the cleanser, we have rejected that we are unclean to begin with and assert that we need no cleansing therefore no cleaning can be performed. Overall it is not as much believing that Jesus Christ is perfect as admitting we are not perfect. Very few people want to say that about themselves; they do not want to call their actions sinful for a variety of reasons. Are actions sinful because one believes them to be so? That remains a question. But ultimately Paradise is denied to those who do not choose it. If Paradise is a Christian God concept, and one does not believe in Christian God, then there is no Christian Paradise for that person in existence. So they will not go there. And that is the definition of Hell. Separation from Christian God (Who is also described as Love). The separation from God/Love is Hell. But if a person doesn't believe in God, they should not have a problem being separated from Him if He does exist because they wanted nothing to do with Him in life. Therefore, Hell is a choice we make. That's just how I reckon it. |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: toughlover-ga on 02 Jun 2003 18:19 PDT |
Ok Filian, I prostrate myself before you in Sackcloth and Ashes, for I have sinned against KrisWrite, though my intent was more like good-natured jousting. Now let me turn my attention to your comments. Let's call time out. Sir, permission requested to chew out the general, Sir. Now do I have permission to zing you to my hearts content before we step back inside? Thank you, thank you, thank you very much. Your presentment was substantive and scholarly but attempting to allow for views that are outside of the belief in jeasus or even God. My discussions do not countenance Atheist and Nnon Christians, inasmuch as that would require that I first debate and convince that set of people, before I could move to the topic at hand. Obviously nobody could ever make any statement that could satisfy all elements of all societies. |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: bebop-ga on 03 Jun 2003 14:38 PDT |
A lot of people say "unconditional love" while confusing love for tolerance. Parental love, for instance, is (supposed to be) unconditional, and they will love you whatever you do. But they will not tolerate everything you do. In fact, if they were to look the other way as you destroy yourself and others, that would not be love at all. Kriswrite wrote that: "The Bible does teach that God's love is unconditional...however, God loves us whether or not we believe in Him." Here are some passages that support that view: - Matthew 5:43-48. "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Luke 23:33-34 "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left. Jesus said, 'Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.'" - Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." God, who is perfect, loves his enemies. Jesus prayed for those who were crucifying him. Christ loved us enough to die for us, before we had believed (while we were still sinners). I know there are people more familiar with the Bible who can find even more passages, but I just wanted to defend this belief. |
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Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pinkfreud-ga on 05 Jun 2003 08:28 PDT |
Thank you very much for the tip! ~pinkfreud |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: pugwashjw-ga on 26 Jun 2003 01:26 PDT |
The question as to whether God loves us with/without conditions is answered by himself through the apostle Peter., Have a look at second Peter chapter 3 verse 9...Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. It depends on our behaviour whether or not we are punished [ destroyed] So there is a punishment coming. Examples are found in the Hebrew scriptures such as when Moses came down off the mountain and found many of the Israelites worshipping a golden calf. They were punished very dramatically. Moses himself certainly did not have the power to open up the earth as described in the Bible. And if it was only a local earthquake, which I certainly do not believe, it sure was one tremendous coincidence. And what about second Kings 19;35, On one night, the Angel of Jehovah "proceeded to go out and strike down a hundred and eighty five thousand in the camp of the Assyrians. when people rose up early in the morning , why, there all of them were dead carcasses. God does impose conditions. And they are all in print..In the Bible |
Subject:
Re: WHICH IDIOT CAME UP WITH THE NOTION OF "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE"?
From: amalik-ga on 30 Oct 2003 12:13 PST |
Although the phrase "unconditional love" may have been coined by a western psychologist, from the tenor of your question I take it you are interested also in the religous origin of the concept of divine love. For this, you need to turn to India. [Note: I shall try to cite primary documents rather than web site interpretations because as in all matters of religon (or any other controversial subject), relying on Internet web sites is a dicey proposition. Also note that this is a very condensed history of the origin of an extremely important idea - so I've left out a great deal. I rely on an academic web-site in this discussion, The Indian History Sourcebook (see citation 1)]. Among the three oldest surviving religons: australian aborigine, the Hebrew Bible, and the Hindu Vedas, sacrifice is prominent in the latter two (I leave out the oldest religon, the Bear cult as it only survives on one remote island in Japan where it is practiced by the Ainu). It is through sacrifice that one invokes and appeases the divine. (See citation 2). Then came Buddha and challenged the reigning Vedic orthodoxy. [See citation 3] In response to the popularity of Buddhism, Hinduism adopted two approaches. The first was to declare Buddha the ninth incarnation of an already existing Hindu god, Lord Vishnu This is of course a very clever response to a challenge posed by a new religon. The two reasons Vishnu is supposed to have incarnated as Buddha were : a) to teach the end of animal sacrifice, b) convince demons to stop worshiping Lord Shiva [see Citation 4]. Of course the Buddhists were not amused. The second response was the writing of the Bhagavad-Gita in which sacrifice was no longer the principal way of invoking the gods. It was devotion. Love. Unconditional [see Citation 5] Please read citation 5 before continuing. You will note the parallels with Christianity. You may also note that the name Krishna sounds an awful lot like Christ. This coincidence has lead to a lot of unscholarly speculation as to the origins of Christianity for which there is no evidence. In summary, the oldest religous practices emphasized sacrifice. With the challenge posed by Buddhism, Hinduism reformed itself and emphasized devotion as a route to immortality. I hope this answer is helpful, although it does not confirm your initial hypothesis concerning "deviant hedonists groups". -- --amalik-ga --------------------------------------------------------- Citation 1 The Indian History Sourcebook http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/india/indiasbook.html#The%20Vedic%20Age Citation 2 http://alexm.here.ru/mirrors/www.enteract.com/jwalz/Eliade/137.html HYMNS TO AGNI i. I praise Agni, domestic priest, divine minister of sacrifice, Invoker, greatest bestower of wealth.1 ii. Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers: He shall bring hitherward the gods. 2 vii. To thee, dispeller of the night, 0 Agni, day by day with prayer, Bringing thee reverence, we come; viii. Ruler of sacrifices, guard of Law eternal, radiant one, Increasing in thine own abode. 1 Agni, addressed here in the first of 1028 hymns, is second only to Indra in Rig Vedic popularity. As 'Fire' cosmic or ritual-his production, or rather his perpetual regeneration, becomes the subject of some 200 hymns. Typically, in this first brief stanza he is praised as domestic priest (purohita), performer (ritvij) of the sacrifice (yajna), the invoking and reciting priest (hotar), and bestower of wealth upon his worshippers. 2 Agni not only conveys the ablations to the gods, but brings the gods to the sacrifice as well. Citation 3 http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/ANCINDIA.HTM Similar to the seekers, who reformed Hinduistic thought, the individuals responsible for the growth of these new religions came from the ksatryia caste that sought a release from the brahman's domination of ritual. Also significant, in this quest for change, were the members of the vaishya caste. With the collapse of tribalism, India experienced great material and economic growth from which this class, which included an increasing number of merchants, craftsmen, and professional, benefited. Many of the vaishya, therefore, resented the privileges afforded the upper two castes, which invariably prepared them for religious ferment. Most prominent of the two individuals seeking answers to the orthodox Vedism, and the injustice of the caste system was Siddartha Gautama (c. 563 BC-483 BC) who founded the religion known as Buddhism. Citation 4 http://adaniel.tripod.com/incarnations.htm In his eighth incarnation he was Krishna who helped the right-minded Pandavas to defeat the villain Kauravas. Krishna is also the philosopher of the Bhagwad Gita, one of the holiest Hindu texts. About the ninth incarnation. Two different personalities are identified as the ninth incarnation of Vishnu. One is Balaram, the elder brother of Krishna, who like Krishna helped the right-minded persons to defeat the villians. The other personality identified as his ninth incarnation is Buddha, the establisher of Buddhism. Here too, there are two different beliefs for the purpose of this incarnation. According to one belief Vishnu incarnated as Buddha to preach non-violence and against animal sacrificing in religious ceremony. According to other belief, Vishnu incarnated as Buddha to start a new religion with a specific intention to convince some demons to give up worshipping Lord Shiva. For, Lord Shiva protected his worshippers and these demons used this protection to do whatever they wanted. Buddha convinced them with his new religion and they stopped worshipping Lord Shiva, which in turn allowed Shiva to punish them. Citation 5 http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/ANCINDIA/GITA.HTM Those who being constantly devoted, and possessed of the highest faith, worship me with a mind fixed on me, are deemed by me to be the most devoted. .... Place your mind on me only; fix your understanding on me. In me you will dwell hereafter, there is no doubt. ... But those devotees who, imbued with faith, and regarding me as their highest goal, resort to this holy means for attaining immortality, as stated, they are the dearest of all to me. |
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