I am looking for the original source of a Bertrand Russell quotation
that I believe is :"The mark of a civilized man [or human?] is the
capacity to read a column of numbers and weep." I have found a number
of sources that say "Bertrand Russell once said...." or something like
that. I want to find the original citation in a book by Russell or a
speech by Russell, etc. |
Request for Question Clarification by
ragingacademic-ga
on
12 Jun 2003 23:37 PDT
timw -
Thanks for submitting your question to our forum.
I suspect that Russell never said or wrote "The mark of a civilized
man [or human, or human being] is the capacity to read a column of
numbers and weep."
Oliver Wendell Holmes, on the other hand, wrote - "To have doubted
one's own first principles is the mark of a civilized man."
Quotes on the Internet often get mangled. What do you think?
ragingacademic
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
13 Jun 2003 05:30 PDT
Thanks for the question, but I don't think this is it.
I have secondary sources saying that this is from Russell, and some of
them are fairly respectable places (e.g., a book from Yale University
press (The American Paradox, by David Myers)). I've recently sent out
a series of e-mails to Mr. Myers, some Russell societies, etc., but I
decided that Google Answers might be a faster route. So, I am still
looking for this quotation (or some close version of it) from a
Russell book, speech, article, etc.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
ragingacademic-ga
on
13 Jun 2003 11:47 PDT
timw -
Tehuti-ga points to a previous question that seems to indicate the
sources you quote *are* online.
I've worked on a couple of these searches before (other quotes,
obviously) where the end result was that the quote we were trying to
find was never really made by the person it was attributed to - the
major quote sources e.g. Bartlett, Columbia, Simpson do not bring this
up nor do about a dozen online quote repositories that do include
other Russell sayings.
Something to think about...
thanks,
ragingacademic
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
13 Jun 2003 12:27 PDT
Thanks for the note.
I am looking for this quotation so that I can appropriately cite it in
my own writing. If I end up having to say something like, "X says
that Bertrand Russell said," or "attributed to Bertrand Russell in X's
book," I will. But I would really rather cite to a primary source
among Russell's own writings or speeches.
I recognize that I might not actually find a primary source, but
that's why I'm here: I'm hoping that someone here might know
someplace to look that I don't.
Here's hoping.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
shananigans-ga
on
14 Jun 2003 22:50 PDT
As I commented below, I sent out an email on your behalf. The reply I
got is below:
You can contact Professor Seligman directly through the psychology
department at the University of Pennsylvania:
seligman@cattell.psych.upenn.edu . -sps
Perhaps Professor Seligman can answer your question?
shananigans-ga
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
14 Jun 2003 23:16 PDT
Thanks very much. I'll try Prof. Seligman. I will also keep this
question open in case anyone here can find the answer.
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
15 Jun 2003 09:02 PDT
No luck. Professor Seligman says he doesn't know the primary source
either. He referred me to Professor Myers' (author of one of the
books cited by the previous searcher here), but I've already contacted
him, and he doesn't have a source either. I'm upping the fee now,
because this is beginning to be more than an academic exercise; it's a
dare to me.
Thanks.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
ragingacademic-ga
on
15 Jun 2003 12:41 PDT
timw -
Hello again. Kudos on raising the bounty, this is indeed becoming
interesting!
I'm working down two paths - one is the "this is not really a Russell
quote" path; have found another famous quote with the term "mark of a
civilized man" -
"I feel sorry for (the press) because they should recognize that to
the extent they allow their own hatreds to consume them, they will
lose the rationality which is the mark of a civilized man." -- Richard
M. Nixon
Source is -
http://morrock.com/newsdef.htm
More interestingly, there is a center for the study of Bertrand
Russell at McMaster University in Canada -
http://www.mcmaster.ca/russdocs/russell1.htm
Lots and lots of links to follow.
I'm letting you on to this because I don't know how much time I'll
have to tackle this in the next few days - you or other researchers
are welcome to try!
Best of luck,
ragingacademic
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
15 Jun 2003 13:21 PDT
Thanks for the note.
The Nixon quote is definitely not what I'm looking for (and it's kind
of funny, considering the source).
As for the McMaster Russell Center, I've already contacted them, and
they were unfamiliar with the quotation but said they'd look around.
If you're going to pursue this as a quotation that may be from someone
else, the part that I'm most interested in is "read a column of
numbers and weep." It conveys to me that people should be able to be
as moved by numbers as by words.
Thanks again.
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
17 Jun 2003 18:28 PDT
OK. I don't have a whole lot of disposible income, but this is
becoming a quest. Move it up to $60.
Thanks for any help.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
23 Jun 2003 17:48 PDT
Hello Timw,
I've been quietly, behind the scenes, trying to track this done, as
much as a point of honor than for any other reason.
One thing I noticed is this. Myers, in his article "Wanting more in
an age of plenty" that appeared in "Christianity Today" doesn't
actually *quote* Russell. Here's an excerpt from the article...note
the difference between how he works in the Russell material vs the Al
Gore material:
-------------------
The National Commission on Civic Renewal combined social trends such
as these in creating its 1998 "Index of National Civic Health"-which
plunged southward from 1960 until the early 1990s. Bertrand Russell
once said that the mark of a civilized human is the capacity to read a
column of numbers and weep. Can we weep for the social recession's
casualties-for the crushed lives behind these numbers?
It is hard to argue with Al Gore: "The accumulation of material goods
is at an all-time high, but so is the number of people who feel an
emptiness in their lives." Moreover, he explained in declaring his
presidential candidacy, "Most Americans are hungry for a deeper
connection between politics and moral values; many would say
'spiritual values.' "
-------------------
Al gets actual quote marks. Russell doesn't. Hmmmm.....Not sure what
to make of it, exactly, except it's looking less and less like this is
a genuine quote.
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
24 Jun 2003 07:10 PDT
Thanks, pafalafa.
You're right to note the quote mark difference. That's what I might
do if I didn't have a primary source and I didn't want to go through
the trouble (and awkward writing) of "it has been said that Bertrand
Russell said...."
And I've actually been in touch with several of the other secondary
source authors, and they don't know where they got it either. So, I'm
still hoping that someone can tell me where this began, but so far it
seems like a minor myth.
Thanks again for still trying. It's become a point of honor for me,
too.
TimW
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
09 Jul 2003 07:40 PDT
As one last try to find this source, I've raised the fee again. Maybe
the invisible hand of the market can find where Russell said this.
Thanks.
|
Request for Question Clarification by
pafalafa-ga
on
09 Jul 2003 08:46 PDT
Money is no object on this one. I've been looking all over for this
quote (and will continue to do so) just because it's stuck in my craw,
but...no luck so far.
paf
|
Clarification of Question by
timw-ga
on
09 Jul 2003 15:36 PDT
Well, paf, you and me both. Two people have now said that they think
it's from the Russell autobiography. Since that is three volumes
long, I have not gone there yet. But I may....
Thanks for trying.
TMW
|
