I have a few good recipes but just thought someone could add to my
repotoire by offering up something that they really thought was the
"ants pants" of pastry.I.E Something so good and not to difficult that
they or someone they  know could not help but write down/record and
try at home only to vindicate what they first thought, namely that
here was a pastry to die for, (well at least talk about for a while
anyway).  I watched my grandmother make such a pastry as I suspect
everyone has a Grandma who similarly was a pastry expert, but
unfortunately she died and no-one thought to write down exactly what
she did. I remember she carefully and methodically kneaded animal fat
from the previous days roast meat dinner to just the exact consistency
she figured was right, together with sifted flour and a little butter
but beyond that I am not sure.
 This of course was one way to get great meatpie pastry, what else is
there??

---

Clarification of Question by johnfrommelbourne-ga on 10 Aug 2003 06:03 PDT

......not necessarily from personal experience perhaps( although
ideally) but written up or described by someone else of some culinary
experience as such a classic.

Hello there

You are asking about one of my favorite subjects.  Since you want "old
fashioned" as well as good, I hope a couple of thousand years old is
old fashioned enough.

For your recipe we are going to the ancient Middle East.  Never let a
retired Egyptologist get hold of a question like this.  It is bad for
your waistline.  It certainly has been for mine.

You will find no research strategy as part of this answer. This is
from my own collection.  You are also previewing a book I'm slowly
putting together as a gift for another researcher (if I ever get it
done)

Now then, off to ancient Babylon

Sanbusak

An ancient tribute to this particular meat pie goes like this:

"If thou woulds't know what food gives most delight,
Best let me tell for none hath subtler sight.
Take first the finest meat, red, soft to touch,
And mince it with the fat, not overmuch;
Then add an onion, cut in circles clean,
A cabbage, very fresh, exceeding green,
And season well with cinnamon and rue,
Of coriander add a handfull, too,
And after that of cloves the very best,
A hand of cumin, murri just to taste,
Two handfuls of Palmyra salt; but haste
Good master haste to grind them small and strong.
Then lay and light a blazing fire along;
Put all in the pot, and water pour
Upon it from above and cover o'er.
But when the water vanished is from sight
And when the burning flames have dried it quite, 
Then, as thou wilt, in pastry wrap it round,
And fasten well the edges, firm and sound;
Or if it please better, take some dough,
Conveniently soft, and rubbed just so,
Then with the rolling pin let it be spread,
And with the nails its edges docketed.
Pour in the frying-pan the choicest oil
And in that liquor let it finely broil
Last, ladel out into a thin tureen
Where appetizing mustard smeared hath been.
And eat with pleasure, mustarded about
This tastiest food for hurried diner out."

From Mas'udi's Meadows of gold - translated by A.J. Arberry - from
cunniform to Arabic and on to English- Islamic Culture, 1939.

The modern recipe: - Sanbusak

Dough - 4 fluid oz olive oil - ¼ lb. melted butter - 4 fluid oz warm
water - 1 teaspoon salt - 1 lb all purpose flour - 1 beaten egg -
sesame seeds to taste - clarified butter for shallow frying or olive
oil for deep frying

Put the oil and the butter together is a small heatproof bowl and heat
over boiling water till the butter is melted.  Mix with warm water and
salt and pour into a large mixing bowl.  Add flour gradually while
stirring slowly with your hand intil the dough forms a soft rather
greasy ball.  One or two more tablespoons of flour may be required. 
Handle the dough as little as possible which means stop mixing as soon
as it holds together.

Filling - 1 finely chopped large onion - 2 tablespoons buter or olive
oil - 1 lb lean lamb or beef minced (please note, "minced" means
"minced" not something out of the grinder) - 2 tablespoons pine nuts -
salt and black pepper - 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon or ½ teaspoon
ground allspice.

Gently fry onion is tablespoon oil or butter (I prefer to use olive
oil) until soft and pale gold in color.  Add meat and fry lightly till
meat changes color.  Stir in pine nuts and fry 2 more minutes.  Season
to taste with salt and pepper along with the spices.  Moisten with
about 3 tablespoons of water or the meat will be too dry to fill the
pies.  Cook a couple minutes longer till water is absorbed.

Traditional sanbusak are crescent shaped meat pies.  Either roll the
dough out thinly and cut into rounds about 5 inches in diameter or
take walnut sized lumps and flatten out between the palms of your
hands as thinly as possible.

Put a heaped teaspoon of the filling in the center of one half of each
circle.  Fold the other half over to make a half moon shape and seal
by pinching the edges tightly.  Arrange on ungreased baking sheets and
brush the surface with the beaten egg.  I also like to sprinkle some
sesame seed on top.  Bake in oven at 350° - 375° 35 to 45 minutes. 
They should be golden in color. - - You may also fry them in butter or
oil until golden and well cooked inside (this takes only a few minutes
and is the more traditional method of preparation)  If you fry them,
do not brush them with the beaten egg. - - - - This makes about 30
pies.

They are great fresh from the oven or pan.  The baked version is also
good cold.
___________________________________________________________________

Now, if you want to really show off and have a very, very large
kitchen - we are off to ancient Egypt.

You also didn't mention just how large or small you wanted this pie to
be.  I doubt very much if you will ever make it, but it is good for
conversation just to have the recipe around.

I have eaten it, by the way.  This dish (or a variation on it) is
still sometimes made for Egyptian wedding feasts and large gatherings.
 If the translation sounds rather stilted, I guess the Greco-Roman era
Egyptians weren't into 'slang' that much.

"One of the most singular foods made in Egypt is that called raghif
alsiniyyeh.  Take 30 rotles (please don't ask what a "rotle" is) of
wheat flour.  Then knead it with 5 ½ rotles of sesame oil.  Divide the
whole into two parts in a round shape of a cake in a copper plate made
for this purpose of about 4 spans in diameter and which has strong
handles.  After that, arrange on the dough three roasted lambs stuffed
with chopped meats fried in sesame oil, crushed pistacios, various hot
and aromatic spices like pepper, ginger, cloves, lentisk, coriander,
caraway, cardamon, nuts and others.  Sprinkle rose water in which has
been infused musk, over all.  After that, place on the lambs and in
the spaces left, a score of fowls, as many pullets and fifty small
birds, some roasted and stuffed with eggs, others stuffed with meat,
others fried in the juice of cour grapes or lemons.  Put above them
pastry and little boxes filled, some with meat, some with sugar and
sweetmeats.  If one would add one lamb more cut in morsels it would
not be out of place.  One could also add fried cheese.

When the whole is arranged in the shape of a dome, again sprinkle rose
water into which musk has been infused, or wood of aloes.  Cover it
over with the other part of the dough to which begin to give the shape
of a broad cake.  Join the two pieces of dough as pastry so no steam
escapes.  After that, put the whole near the top of the oven until the
pastry is solid and begins a degree of cooking.  Then lower the dish
in the oven little by little, holding it by the handles, and leave it
untill it is well cooked and takes on a rose red color.  When it is at
this point, it is taken out and wiped with a sponge and again
sprinkled with rose and musk water and then brought out to be eaten.

This dish is fit to be put before kings and wealthy persons when they
go hunting far from home or take part in pleasures in far off places. 
For in this one dish is found a great variety.  It is easy to
transport, difficult to break, pleasing to the sight, satisfying to
the taste, and keeps hot a very long time."

Translated from Kitab al-ifadah wa'l-l'tibar

If I may clarify anything, please ask before rating the answer. (I
still don't know what a rotle is)

Happy cooking and eating
digsalot

Thankyou Digsalot,
                    Your answer was great and  most interesting but
figured that I would have to save one star to be awarded to Chromedome
given he came up with what appears to be the quintessential Grandma
recipe of early last century.  I may in fact try recipe provided by
you in full as I am a man who cooks  to live and lives to cook. I may
have alredy done something similar in regards whatI have sampled from
my Morrocan cookbook, ( Morrocan food is wonderful and extremely
colourful on presentation to the table).  One of the reecipes from
that,  once I got past  the semi-sweet stews known as tangines, was to
try Morroccan Cigars. Shaped like a cigar this is basically minced and
spiced lamb wrapped in a Morrocacan style pastry. I also went to the
trouble of trying to make Texas-style chili on supply of a recipe via
another question I put through GA answered by a lady researcher whose
name I forget for the minute.

Hello again, John!

Your recollection of your grandmother using the fat from the roast in
her pastry brought a smile to my face.  Although we'd like to forget
it, in our calorie-conscious world, our forebears just a few decades
ago were loth to waste anything, and the fats preserved from
foodstuffs were an important resource.

Old cookbooks are a wonderful source of recipes and pointers for these
fats; as to a lesser extent are the writings of modern homesteaders
and "back-to-the-land" -ers.  When searching used bookstores for older
cookbooks, I generally use the "chicken test": if a chicken recipe
starts with instructions to "select and pluck a nice fat bird" it's
probably old enough.

Anyone in a Commonwealth country doubtless knows that suet is still
used in boiled puddings (especially at Christmas); tallow was used for
candles and to a lesser extent pastries; lard is still used in pies;
and chicken fat was favoured for cookie-making in some Mennonite
communities (Edna Staebler, "Food That Really Schmecks") and of course
was used as a spread in the Jewish communities of Eastern Europe
(schmaltz).  Goose grease was especially prized for chapped hands and
aching joints; while lamb and mutton fat (barred from culinary use by
their strong flavour) were popular for waterproofing leathers and
greasing cart axles.  Many fats were also used for soap, of course.

Many would still argue that lard makes the best pie crusts. 
Professionally, we don't use it anymore because it is not
kosher/halal, and because many people just object to it on health
grounds.

So, to reconstruct your grandmother's process...

Skim the fats from your pan drippings and put aside in the fridge for
at least a few hours until set.  If your roast had a reasonable rind
of fat, you may trim this and heat it gently in a heavy pan until it
renders up its fat, then add this (the rendered fat, not the rind) to
your store from the roast pan.

When the fats have cooled enough to be firm, place them in a bowl
filled with cold water.  Knead them, working them with your finger
tips, in order to feel for any lumps or impurities.  Change the water
as necessary, if it becomes clouded or warm enough to make the fats
soft.  Since you'll be using this for a savoury pastry, we're not
concerned with any "meaty" flavours left in the fats; otherwise many
older cookbooks specify clarifying the fat with milk to remove the
flavours.

Now then: for a moderate quantity of pastry, use two cups of flour. 
Take 1/3 cup of your roast fats, and 1/3 cup of butter, and add them
to the flour.  Add 1 tsp of salt if your butter is unsalted, 1/2 tsp
if salted.  Using your fingertips, rub the fats into the flour until
you've got a fine, mealy texture throughout.  It's necessary to make a
mealy pastry for most savouries, as the liquids will soak through a
flaky pastry.  When you are satisfied with the consistency, add 6-8
tablespoons of water to the dough, working it just until the dough
comes together in a ball.  Wrap the dough in plastic wrap, and place
it in the refrigerator for a *minimum* of two hours, so that the
gluten in the dough will relax (softer pastry, less stretching) and
the fats will re-harden.  Proceed to roll and use as desired to line
pie tins or wrap pasties and such.

For large quantities of pastry, use the "3-2-1" rule:  three parts
flour; two parts fat; one part water; all by weight.  This is a
scalable recipe which is widely used in the foodservice industry, and
can be used for a batch of practically any size.  Very useful if
you're expecting a huge horde of family for a reunion.

For an easy post-meal "savoury", knead herbs and cheeses into a
portion of pastry.  Roll out, then cut into broad noodle-ish strips. 
Cut strips into 3-4" lengths and place on a cookie sheet, giving each
one or two twists as you do so (alternatively, form them into shapes).
 Bake in a hot oven until browned and crisp, which will only take a
few minutes.

Have fun!

-Chromedome

Oh my...<*drool*>...Digsie and Chromie are writing food porn again...

Would either of you kind gentlemen happen to have a spare napkin?

--M

This sounds just like me!! My Grandma & Mom both made the best pastry
crusts. I simply gave up after too many failed attempts.  Then I found
a pie crust mix that is incredible! You don't even have to roll it and
honestly it is as close to Mom's as I've ever seen!
www.theporchswing.us

Mary