Here is a riddle I was asked in my Values class...  Can you figure out the answer?


There is a bull charging into an abyss. The horns go in; the head goes in; the
front legs go in; the torso and hind legs go in. But, that tail, it just won't
go in. Why?

Because "tales" never die, they keep coming back around. Not sure that
is the "tricky riddle" answer, but there in lies the clue, the Values
Class.

I did quite a bit of writing for magazines a while back, and was asked
if I ever copyrighted my material before I sent it in to the editors,
and I answered "Why? If I even suspected that a magazine was stealing
freelancer material, proven or not, I would never submit my stuff.
Tales like that just don't die, even after the company has gone
under." And it is still true. Of course magazines depend on %75 of
their material coming from freelance sources, so they don't even want
it whispered they do such a thing.

Brains, meat, and Braun are all forgotten in time, .. into the abyss
they go, but the tails are never forgotten.

thanks, 

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 30 Jan 2004 23:50 PST

Another thing that comes to mind with this, is people will forget your
name, your power, what good you did, and where you went, they may even
forget what you look like... but they will never forget how you made
them feel.

Good luck, 

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 31 Jan 2004 00:11 PST

My son just simplified this into a "riddle" answer.. 

No one forgets a tail of bull.. 

so, there you have it.

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 31 Jan 2004 00:45 PST

Your answer does make sense, but that question came directly typed
from my professor....I had him type it out in an email to make to make
sure it was "tail" instead of "tale"...  I'm really not sure of the
exact answer myself, and he is resolved not to tell us till the end of
the semester unless somebody guesses it.....so I suppose I'll have to
wait until Monday to see if that is the correct answer.  Thx!

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 31 Jan 2004 01:52 PST

Well.. put it to him like this.. "A tail of bull, lasts forever." I am
interested in his responce to this myself. I've thought about it,
obviously, since I wrote this, and it is the only reply which makes
sense to me.

Riddles frequently play on words, so I'm sure that he would not use
"tale" in an email to you, sense that is a dead give away.

I have the feeling that I have read this somewhere before, and I think
it was an Aesop fable, but havn't been able to find it, I'll check a
little bit over the weekend if I get the chance.

Let me know with a clarification, so I'll get the email. 

Thanks, 

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 31 Jan 2004 01:59 PST

also, (heh.. keep thinking of things to go with this.. ) Abyss... he
uses that word as well.. The Abyss is frequently termed with
"swallowed by the abyss"

So perhaps it is something like "It is difficult to swallow a tail of
bull". or "A tail of bull is hard to swallow".. I like that better.
I'm sure if you tell him this last, he will at least have to conceed
it is an "answer" to his riddle. It may not be word for word correct,
but in a riddle contest, I think it would be ruled a fair answer and
passed.

There is the charging as well.. charging in another way could be
termed "forced" or force fed,  with the swallow. So, "you can't force
feed a tail of bull" ?? Not sure about that one, I like the other
better.

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 31 Jan 2004 02:04 PST

Ah.. here you go.. 

The more you force a tail of bull, the harder it is to swallow. 

or

Weapons of Mass Destruction, still not found... :-)

There.. that is a very good answer for this riddle, it takes in all
the key elements of the story, and provides the same twists as the
riddle does.

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 03 Feb 2004 17:56 PST

Ok....all of those answers are unfortunately wrong..

<<pulls out hair>> 

He did provide a hint though....take it for what its worth:

HINT:  Only you know the answer.


my brain is totally friend on this one.  I also asked him wether it
actually had to do with Values and Ethichs....he said "yes and
no".....

<<brain explodes>>

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 04 Feb 2004 15:46 PST

Ha! wow ... Okay, I'll set my mind to working on this again and get
back to you. May take a bit, because I have to pick up the little bits
of my own brain before the cat eats them, but I'm sure I'll come up
with something.

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 09 Feb 2004 11:10 PST

Hey, try this the next time you see him.. Tell him that 'an Abyss is
bottomless' :-) Still working on this, but this little fact crossed my
mind, and he sound like the type that might go for an answer like
that. Doesn't fit his 'hints' at all, but I can't think of what might
either. Anyway, he might get a kick out of it.

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 09 Feb 2004 12:16 PST

Here's an interesting tid-bit. According to this lecture, the Bull in
astrology represents the throat or larnyx on a human.

http://wn.elib.com/Steiner/Lectures/RiddHuman/19160828p01.html

"You know that astrology assigns the human head to the sign of the
Ram, the throat and larynx to the Bull, the part of the body where the
arms are attached and also what the arms and hands express to the
Twins, the circumference of the chest to the Crab, everything to do
with the heart to the Lion, the activities contained by the abdomen to
the Virgin, the lumbar region to the Scales, the sexual region to the
Scorpion, the thighs to the Hunter, the knees to the Sea-Goat, the
calves to the Waterman, and the feet to the Fishes."

Doesn't help with the riddle as far as I can tell, but it is
interesting what you can find out looking around for bull's in the
abyss. :-)

webadept-ga

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 09 Feb 2004 15:07 PST

LOL!  ok, I'll definately have to run this by him when i have his class tomorrow :D

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 10 Feb 2004 03:04 PST

I think I have it here. 

The tail can not go into the abyss, because there is no tail.

Explaination: 

The head has already gone into the abyss, therefore, there is no head
any longer. It doesn't exist. There can not be a tail, without a head,
therefore, the tail doesn't exist either. This is a math/logic/data
riddle, dealing with the duality perception of our world. No ups
without downs, no ins without outs, no backs without fronts, and no
tails without heads.

Either that, or the Bull is a Frog. :-)

Links

This is a strange link but it should get you to the text view of a PS document

://www.google.com.ni/search?q=cache:WWVtI2pHYbkJ:user.it.uu.se/~hamer/PKdel3-2000/11-lists.ps+%2B%22If+there+is+no+head%22&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8


"Note: "Mutually exclusive" means that if one thing occurred, then the
other thing could not occur. For example, in tossing a coin, if a head
comes up then a tail cannot also come up, and vice versa. If one thing
occurs, it excludes the other from occurring."
http://home.freeuk.com/willc/spc/2_variation.htm


This appears to be quite a theme, now that I search in this direction. 

"'And have I no tail either?' asked the rabbit mischievously.
'You have nothing,' hooted the owl, swivelling his head and fixing her
with his great eyes. 'There is no "you" to have any "thing" and no
"thing" for any "you" to have! Moreover the one you think you have is
nothing to worry about anyway.'"
http://www.weiwuwei.8k.com/uwxxiii.html

"BOH TAU BOH BUAY
Hokkien term which literally translates as, "no head no tail", meaning
"incomprehensible"."
http://www.talkingcock.com/html/lexec.php?op=LexLink&lexicon=lexicon&keyword=BOH&page=1

"You cannot confront what has no head and you cannot follow what has no tail."
http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap14.htm

(b) Idiomatic expressions
No head, no tail
http://courses.nus.edu.sg/course/elltankw/2262/NE.htm



When you gaze at something but see - nothing;
When you listen for a sound but cannot hear it;
When you try to grasp it and find it has no substance
- then these three things
That go beyond your mind
Are moulded together in the One.

Its surface doesn't shine, but nor is its base dull.
Given this, it is only knowable as no-thing.

Confront it - it has no head;
Come behind it, and it has no tail... 
http://myfables.net/tao.htm

Well, that should be more than you are really interested in. An like I
said, if this is not the answer, then our Bull is a Frog.

Let me know what he says, who knows what I'll come up with next :-)

webadept-ga

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 10 Feb 2004 08:44 PST

Thanks!  I'll run it by him....I'm starting to fell like you should be
paid more than the $2 for all your work...lol.  He syas once somebody
solves this one he'll give us another one...so just keep an eye out ;)
:D

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 10 Feb 2004 14:53 PST

Ok, direct from my professor:

[quote]
Hello Dan,

Well, those were very good commentaries. They do point to the answer. But, you
still don't 'get' it .

Prof. Kelly

[/quote]


Well....at least we're getting there :-D

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 10 Feb 2004 15:52 PST

Hmm... Well when this is done (or maybe before that) I want you to ask
your professor a riddle.

Q. You are in a room with no doors or windows. The size is 10ft sq.
There is only a table and a lamp inside with you. The walls are thick.
How do you get out?

A. Look in the mirror, to see what you saw. Take the saw and cut the
table in half, two halves make a whole. Climb through the hole and you
are out.

Not really a "fair" riddle, but it's fun, and so is this one. I'll
give it some more thought. Really thought that one was the answer
though. hmmmm.

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 11 Feb 2004 03:27 PST

Another researcher, mathtalk-ga, suggested that this may be more
"economics" and gave the answer "because the tail of the bull is the
head of the bear". I like that, but ... at least it might earn us
another clue (though those don't appear to be helping much :-) might
do more harm than good).

I'll be back with more ideas soon. 

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 12 Feb 2004 09:24 PST

perhaps we have a grammer twist here. if the tail was in, then the
bull would not  be "charging", it would be past tense, "charged" Only
the tail keeps it "charging" ... check that answer, and let me know.
He said my last one pointed to the answer, so it may be a close guess.

webadept-ga

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 12 Feb 2004 09:28 PST

I like Sublime's answer (below) as well. Through the whole riddle it
is "the head"  and "the middle" and "the horns" .. then it switches to
"that tail" .. Because "that tail" doesn't belong to "the bull" .. is
a good answer.

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 13 Feb 2004 03:08 PST

I'm really curious here on sublime's answer of "Because that tail
doesn't belong to the bull". Any answer on that? Come on now.. you
started this :-)

I've got a busy weekend, so I may not get back to this with anything
until monday or so, but keep me posted, and good luck.

webadept-ga

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Request for Answer Clarification by dannyboy8406-ga on 17 Feb 2004 22:53 PST

Ok, still a no go :(  but I did pick up something from him though...
he said that I could understand it more when we started to cover
Buddhism....so maybe the answer has its answer somewhere in the
philosophies or teachings of Buddhism?

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Clarification of Answer by webadept-ga on 17 Feb 2004 23:02 PST

Very good clue. Yes, I think that will help, well done. I thought we
would get something from him we can really use if we kept at him long
enough :-) The really hard part about this riddle is not knowing the
context of the message. So, now we have a context. I have a large
library on the teachings of Buddhism, and a website on that as well,
so I'll get some reading done and see what I can come up with.

webadept-ga

Here is a fanciful answer...

If we regard the abyss as the equivalent of hell, the reason why the
tail of the bull will not go in is obvious:

"God is in detail." :-D

Here is another fanciful answer.

We are told that the bull is "charging into an abyss." If each section
of the bull that enters the abyss ceases to be, then doesn't the bull
stop "charging" at the point when his hind legs go into oblivion? At
which point, the tail would not be pulled in because there's nothing
to pull it!

Momentum should carry it, Pink.

I think it's a tall tale. In fact it's so tall that it's taller than
the abyss so it doesn't fit.

Either that, or it's tied to the chicken who's crossing the road in
the other direction.

Or maybe someone stole it and pinned it on the donkey.

Maybe it's a Manx bull so there's no tail to start with.

And my serious answer. We are told that the bull is charging into the
abyss. If we are told then there must be a tale to tell. If there's a
tail to tell it's not in the abyss. And nobody can call that an
abyss-mal tail.

It doesn't have ethics but it might have value. It'll be fifty if it's a bullseye.

"Depending on the size of the bull, one or more horses on a hitch come
out and drag the carcass away, where it is prepared to go to the local
butcher shop (all the meat is used)..."

"In exceptional cases, the toreador is awarded the bull's tail as well."

http://wasylik.net/spain/dayseven.html

-- mathtalk-ga

Dan...

The devil is, indeed, in 'de'tails.

The way it was originally worded:
"But, that tail, it just won't go in. Why?"

...it could easily be because 'that' tail doesn't
belong to the bull.

There's an exercise from the ReSurfacing Workbook,
from Part One of the Avatar Course, called
'This and That'. It calls for you to first
experiencing things as 'this' object, then 'that'
object; or 'this' sensation, then 'that' sensation.
It's quite intriguing. This page from LifePower.com
details the exercise, at the bottom third of the page:
http://www.lifepower.com/lifeSource/resurfacing/reSurfacing.html

sublime1-ga

Perhaps the "abyss" isn't deep enough for the entire bull to fit and
he charged into a wall.

- Hammer

Why not?

And following yesterday evening's John Belushi response, my late
father came to me in a dream last night and pointed out, in typical
fashion, that the answer to 'Why?' is always 'Zed,' or, for any
Americans reading, 'Zee'.

Why? Z.

It has a sort of elegantly fake mathematical simplicity to it.

Dannyboy,

I've just come across this question.

Has he told you the answer yet?!

Mike

Hi Dannyboy,

I just have to have a go at the answer. It's been keeping me up late! 

I like Pinks' logic as I think she is getting closest to the answer.

Without researching Buddhism/bull/tail nor abyss I offer the following:

An abyss has no end. Therefore, logic precludes that the ending of all
that enters the abyss is also never-ending.

Are we close? Would your Professor care to keep us on a string with
more clues before he reveals the answer?

Regards, Phil

I'd say ask your professor if the answer has anything to do with the
goose in the bottle.

Apteryx

I pestered dannyboy for months. Finally, I got to Prof. Kelly, and got
the following:

From: Brett Walker (http://www.vertabrett.com)
To: 'ekelly@*******.edu' 
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 5:09 PM
Subject: bull/tail/abyss
Just out of curiosity, from where did you get the 'bull charging' riddle?
I found it in a random Google Answers search a while back, and I
figured out who you were.
Thanks for your time,
-Brett
ps. I ask because I feel unsatisfied with the answer.


From: 'ekelly@*******.edu' 
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 11:46 PM
Well, now that you know "who" I am, who are you? If you can answer
that question, you will understand the answer to the riddle.
A teacher holds up a stick and says to his disciples: "Quick, tell me
what this is. If you tell me it is a stick, you deny its nature. If
you tell me it's not a stick you deny the fact."
Feel free to write back Brett,
Prof. Kelly


From: Brett Walker
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 8:48 PM
Prof. Kelly-
My answer to you should tell you who I am.
Only the stick can tell us what it is.
I went to Caltech from '95 to '99 and this convoluted thinking makes my head hurt.
What's the source of the bull/tail/abyss story?
Please!!!
-Brett


From: Eugene Kelly 
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 2004 12:50 AM
Hello Brett,
I'm sorry about your head. The source of the "bull story" is the
Wu-men-kuan (Jap. Mumonkan), lit. "the Gateless Gate"; one of the two
most important koan collections of Ch'an (Zen) literature. It was
compiled by the Chinese Ch'an (Zen) master Wu-men Hui-k'ai (Jap. Mumon
Ekai). Koans (Jap., lit. "public notice") in Chinese Kung-an are
paradoxical "riddles" given to students of Ch'an (Zen) meditation by a
master for the purpose of aiding the student's progress toward
enlightenment. While they are often humorous and interesting, their
purpose is considered sacred by Zen Buddhists. By searching for an
answer to the Koan it is hoped that the student is propelled beyond
the conceptual/logical mind into the "original mind" or
"Buddha-nature". There are many koans and, generally, a student's
progress is helped by gaining skill at opening the mind into
increasing clarity through "solving" koans of greater and greater
difficulty.
 
There are many helpful books on the subject of koans. Your local
bookstore probably has several. Or, Amazon.com is another good source.
 
Best,
Gene Kelly
 
P.S. I thought you may be one of my new students for the fall
semester. That's the reason for the "Prof." earlier. Sorry.

an abyss goes vertically into the ground doesnt it? a bull charges
horizontally on the ground. the riddle says the bull charges *into*
the abyss, emaning it would have to charge/run horizontally into the
abyss. how is that possible?? does the bull just *fall* into the
abyss. if thats so then it wouldnt be the same as the riddle says.

Just a thought. :)