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Q: What is the most promising technique for extracting energy from the vacuum? ( No Answer,   3 Comments )
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Subject: What is the most promising technique for extracting energy from the vacuum?
Category: Science > Physics
Asked by: eusonia-ga
List Price: $100.00
Posted: 29 May 2004 02:30 PDT
Expires: 28 Jun 2004 02:30 PDT
Question ID: 353482
Given Professor Wheeler's energy density of the vacuum (in
"Gravitation"), and the  illuminating experiments proving it
physically exists (Cassimer(?) Effect, Lamb Shift, etc.), what
progress has been made since the late fifties in getting at this
energy source in a practical way?  Are there any products extant (or
on the drawing board) that use the concept? Do companies exist that
develop and test products based on these principals? Is this all just
a "wild goose chase"?

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 29 May 2004 17:02 PDT
eusonia-ga,

What a great question.  I was hoping to be able to answer it for you
today, but I've just been too busy, and will be for the next day so as
well.

In fairness to you and to the other researchers, I will unlock the
question so others can have a crack at providing you a timely answer.

If it remains unanswered after a few days, I will do my best to get
back to it, and will try and explain the current thinking and future
possibilities of practical machines that make use of the "something
from nothing" effect.  It's not a wild goose chase, but it certainly
is wild...

pafalafa-ga

Request for Question Clarification by tox-ga on 29 May 2004 17:59 PDT
Hi eusonia,

This is indeed a great question.  I would be interested in taking a
stab at it.  It would help me if you could explain a little bit about
your background knowledge in physics.  Do you hold any degrees in the
field?  If not, are you familiar with the concepts of general
relativity, quantum mechanics, and quantum electrodynamics?  This
would help me tailor an answer to best suit your level of
understanding.

Best regards,
tox-ga

Clarification of Question by eusonia-ga on 29 May 2004 18:20 PDT
First of all, my thanks to both of you for your fast reponse, the
essence of goodbusiness.

Reply to pafalafa.ga: OK, that's fine.

Reply to tox-ga:  My backgroung in Physics: I hold a Ph.D. in
Engineering Mathematics. I have a great deal of Physics in my
background, having read widely and taken courses for years. I am
nearly 69. I am familiar with the concepts of general relativity,
quantum mechanics and quantum electrodynamics (via Feynman's book) as
well as Petr Beckmann's "Galilean Electrodynamics". I look forward to
hearing from you.

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 03 Jun 2004 11:24 PDT
eusonia-ga,

Me again.  When you posted your question, I had -- by coincidence --
just finished up an article on the Casimir effect, where force appears
to arise out of "nowhere".  A micromachine has been built that
utilizes this effect, though it has no practical use at the moment.

I initally thought I'd be able to answer your question with a bit more
information about the Casimir effect, but upon rereading -- and
rethinking -- I see you're asking about several phenomena at once. 
I'm afraid this is a bigger bite than my simple mind can digest, so
I'll have to pass on this question, after all.

But I still think it's a great question.  Hopefully, a researcher a
bit bolder than myself will have a go at it.

pafalafa-ga

Clarification of Question by eusonia-ga on 08 Jun 2004 00:12 PDT
OK. Thanks for the try.
Answer  
There is no answer at this time.

Comments  
Subject: Re: What is the most promising technique for extracting energy from the vacuum?
From: iang-ga on 30 May 2004 15:32 PDT
 
It's long been suggested that Nikola Tesla invented devices that would
extract zero point energy. Unfortunately there's not much in the way
of proof.  Robert Forward, as a thought experiment, suggested a way
that a rocket motor could be built -
http://www.calphysics.org/articles/Forward1984.pdf.  More recently,
the discovery, by Saul Perlmutter, that the expansion of the universe
is accelerating, has led to the suggestion that this is being driven
by zero point energy.  It turns out that ZPE is 120 orders of
magnitude too much, though theoreticians are working on it!

Ian G.
Subject: Re: What is the most promising technique for extracting energy from the vacuum?
From: thenextguy-ga on 07 Jun 2004 14:23 PDT
 
Bear in mind that Van der Waals forces will also explain the
attraction between plates in the Casimir effect.  Yes, there's energy
in the interaction of those plates, just as there is energy in the
interaction between a bowling ball on a bookshelf and the Earth.  You
can extract it once, and then you have to separate the plates again
(or put the ball back on the bookshelf) to repeat the process.  Of
course, it'll take energy to do either of those things, and you won't
be able to get out quite as much as you'll have to put back in to
"reload" the device.

If you think about it, every energy-producing system there is operates
on some kind of gradient.  Temperature, chemical potential,
gravitational potential, etc.  There's a direction from hot to cold
that drives things.  There's no direction in the vacuum.

We can use gravitational potential energy in a dam because there's a
change in elevation and the water is put back at the top of the cycle
by the Sun.  We can get chemical energy out of gas, oil, etc., but
only once, and only because those molecules were assembled at some
point.   The same goes for nuclear energy - fissionable materials are
produced in the last seconds of a dying supernova, which has plenty of
energy to spare.

Extraction of energy from the vacuum is generally regarded as being in
the realm of fractured ceramic cookware (although NASA apparently
dropped some money on it in the past).
Subject: Re: What is the most promising technique for extracting energy from the vacuum?
From: mike_r-ga on 07 Sep 2004 20:11 PDT
 
I have investigated the claims behind "Zero Point Energy" (ZPE) extraction
and found that they can all be easily dismissed -- except (remote
possibility) one type of approach. More on that in a minute.

First, lets explore why ZPE is most likely not a usable power source:

    1) The very laws and theories of physics, that predict vacuum energy
    fluctuation, also tell us that the net effect is zero.   The net sum of
    energy and matter is conserved. These theories and laws have survived all
    objective tests to date.

    So, if we had a ZPE Generator (ZPEG) sucking energy out of the vacuum,
    that energy would eventually have to be replaced/recharged somehow --
    like rain recharging a hydroelectric dam.

    There is no known or theoretical way for this recharging to take place.
    Although, Asimov and others have written humorously about stealing power
    from "other universes".

    2) ZPEG's also appear to violate other physical laws such as the 2nd law
    of thermodynamics. There's no such thing as a free lunch -- no matter how
    much we might wish for it.


Let's assume that ZPEG's are possible.   To work, they would appear to
create energy/matter out of nothing (or to move it around in violation of the
2nd law).    Since this is not possible, they would really be moving energy
from somewhere, outside our known universe, to our ZPEG.   From there it
would flow to our big screen TV and everybody's happy.

I find this ironic since ZPE is mostly hyped as a "pollution free" idea by
people who decry 10 new eco-disasters for every new technology.    A ZPEG
might not put carbon into the air but it would quite possibly be strip mining
an entire universe of it's photons!   (I'm sure that Douglas Adams would be
able to show that such a universe must, by necessity, be occupied by warm,
fuzzy, peaceful, dolphin- like creatures.  ;-)


Now to the claims of ZPE extraction:
This is an extraordinary claim which demands extraordinary proof.
The claims I've found so far are usually short on specifics.   They can be
summarized as follows:

    1) "Company XYZ will have a product soon."    Company XYZ cannot be found
    or provides no specifics.

    2) "So-and-so did it" or "Tesla did it" but the government and big
    corporations kept it secret. It is convenient that "the man" actually
    couldn't keep the secret (that's how we know that so-and- so did it). We
    are asked to believe that some genius, who reinvented physics, revealed
    his secret (presumably on pain of death) but never managed to mail plans
    to anyone else?

    Has any other invention, that threatened the status quo, ever had such a
    fate?   The printing press?  Electricity?  The automobile?  Aviation?
    Atomic weapons?  The Internet?

    No, some ideas cannot be stopped.   The first guy to present, even
    plausible plans for, a ZPEG will be a hero known to billions of people --
    Not some nut job with foil on his head.

    3) We are offering a "prize" -- so someone will figure it out.   See
    http://www.seaspower.com/zprizeannounced.htm .

    4) Details are given, on a whacky approach, but enough detail is shown so
    that the errors can be easily deduced.   For an example, see
    http://www.tewari.org/Test_Results/test_results.html .
    Here a power gain of 2.58 is claimed (a power gain of 1 is a perpetual
    motion machine) Tewari's own data shows that his generator has (at best)
    a gain of 0.84. The Power gain for his whole SYSTEM is 0.696.    For a
    ZPEG to work, it's SYSTEM gain must appear to be greater than 1 (and it
    had better be throttleable or things could blow up).

At this stage, somebody needs to hand a box over to an independent group of
reporters and physicist and say, "see I told you so".    If the box works,
there would be no keeping it down.
Until such a thing happens, we are justified in dismissing ZPE out of hand
(The burden of proof is on the snake oil salesman.  Not us.)

Now, for that approach which I have not dismissed -- mainly because it
requires more analysis than I am willing to waste at this point:

I call it the "Clapper Approach".   The idea uses the Casimir Effect
something like this:

    1)  Two plates (not necessarily flat in practice) supported apart from
    each other by an apparatus, in a vacuum.

    2) The plate charges are managed for best operation but probably remain
    zero.

    3) The apparatus allows the plates to be slapped together by the Casimir
    effect and extracts the mechanical energy as the plates come together.

    4) To reset the system, we cannot just pull the plates apart.  The 2nd
    law would kill our ZPEG. We get around this by sliding the plates
    sideways away from each other -- like dealing cards from a deck.
    Hopefully this sliding uses a lot less energy than we obtained in step 3.

    5) Once the plates are clear horizontally, we can reset the vertical
    distance without doing work against the Casimir forces.

    6) We now slide the plates back into the original position, of step 1,
    and we are ready for another cycle.


This approach is, at first glance, analogous to dipping waterwheel vanes in
and out of a stream.

If anyone can show that it does not work in theory (beyond what has already
been stated!), please respond.

Regards,
-- MikeR

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