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Q: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Money) ( Answered 5 out of 5 stars,   3 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Money)
Category: Business and Money > Finance
Asked by: nronronronro-ga
List Price: $60.00
Posted: 12 Sep 2004 12:23 PDT
Expires: 12 Oct 2004 12:23 PDT
Question ID: 400208
Hi There !

I have reposted this question for more money.  The original question
brought some fantastic comments from rabaga, neilzero, hailstorm, and
and the grammatoncleric.  I really appreciate their insights!

But this is an important research project, so I am still looking.
Below is the question.  Thanks in advance.

*****************************************************************

I am trying to find some data I read about a few weeks ago.

Apparently, a finance professor simulated buying 200 stocks.  All 200
were chosen at random (i.e., by throwing darts at a dart board).

Any stock which declined 5% or more from the purchase price was "sold"
from the portfolio.  All the remaining stocks (in the range from minus
4.99% to plus 100%) were retained in the portfolio.

The portfolio apparently did very well, beating the S&P 500 year after
year.  The professor's point was this:  it doesn't matter how you pick
stocks.  It only matters that you sell losers and keep winners.

This "simpleton" approach sounds too good to be true.  On the other
hand, this approach is intriguing given many investors refuse to sell
losing stocks while those stocks are still down.   In my own
experience, a single badly-decayed stock can overwhelm an entire
portfolio of good stocks.

A 5-star answer would be finding this study (or two studies similar to
it) which discusses "money management" rules as opposed to "stock
picking" rules.

All comments greatly appreciated!

Thanks.
ron
Answer  
Subject: Re: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Mo
Answered By: larre-ga on 12 Sep 2004 14:02 PDT
Rated:5 out of 5 stars
 
Thanks for asking (again), Ron!

Let's start with.... 

A Bit of Dartboarding History
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The "father" of the Dartboard model is William F. Sharpe, Nobel
Laureate in Economic Sciences, 1990, for work based upon his 1964
essay, "The Capital Asset Pricing Model, or Risk/Return Model".

"Modern Portfolio Theory was not yet adolescent in 1960 when William
F. Sharpe, a 26-year-old researcher at the RAND Corporation, a think
tank in Los Angeles, introduced himself to a fellow economist named
Harry Markowitz. Neither of them knew it then, but that casual knock
on Markowitz's office door would forever change how investors valued
securities."

The full article:

Revisiting The Capital Asset Pricing Model, by Jonathan Burton
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Ewfsharpe/art/djam/djam.htm


Sharpe's Articles, Papers, Talks and Cases Available for Direct Viewing:

William F. Sharpe Papers and Articles
http://www.stanford.edu/%7Ewfsharpe/art/art.htm


Another well-known contribution in the field is "A Random Walk down
Wall Street", by Princeton University Professor Burton G. Malkiel.

"The basic random walk premise is that price movements are totally
random. Judging from the chart, the price movements of Newmont Mining
over this 5-month period would appear to be quite random. Prices have
no memory, therefore past and present prices cannot be used to predict
future prices (as implied in technical analysis). Prices move at
random and adjust to new information as it comes available. The
adjustment to this new information is so fast that it is impossible to
profit from it. Furthermore, news and events are also random and
trying to predict these (fundamental analysis) is also a lesson in
futility."

A Random Walk | ChartSchool
http://www.stockcharts.com/education/Overview/randomWalk.html


This work spawned the famous Wall Street Journal Dartboard Contest. 

"In 1988 the Wall Street Journal began a contest that was inspired by
Burton Malkiel's book A Random Walk Down Wall Street. In the book, the
Princeton Professor theorized that "a blindfolded monkey throwing
darts at a newspapers financial pages could select a portfolio that
would do just as well as one carefully selected by experts."

The Journal set out to create an entertaining contest to test
Malkiel's theory and give its readers some new investment ideas in the
process. Wall Street Journal staff members typically play the role of
the monkeys (the Journal listed liability insurance as one reason for
not going all the way and actually using live monkeys)."

The Wall Street Journal Dartboard Contest
http://www.investorhome.com/darts.htm

"The idea Prof. Malkiel was explaining is known as the
"efficient-market theory." The theory holds that all available
information is quickly reflected in stock prices, and so all stocks
present equal chances for a gain."

A Brief History of our Contest (A quick, entertaining read ---l)
http://update.wsj.com/public/current/articles/SB907719524729880000.htm


And finally, the recent studies,

In 1995, the following study was published in the Journal Of Financial
And Strategic Decisions:

THE PERFORMANCE OF STOCKS: PROFESSIONAL VERSUS DARTBOARD PICKS
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"This paper evaluates the performance of a portfolio formed on
professional advice (also called pros picks) with another portfolio
picked at random (also called random or dart picks). We study public
announcements of professionals recommendations and random picks from
the ?Investment Dartboard? column in the Wall Street Journal. Our
findings indicate that significant abnormal returns accrue to the
investors of pros picks, on the day of publication and on one day
after the publication. The results also indicate that there is no
significant stock price behavior pattern prior to the pros
recommendation. The holding period is arranged on a continuum ranging
from roughly one week to six months and a comparison of the mean
excess returns of the two portfolios is made over this range. Results
suggest that the pros selection statistically outperforms the random
selection only in the one-week period. Over a six-month holding
period, the random stocks perform better than the pros
recommendations. A publicity effect is discerned from the pros
recommendation, which gives support to a moral hazard problem
encountered by investment professionals. The results are also
consistent with the literature on noise and overreaction."


Journal Of Financial And Strategic Decisions, 
Volume 8 Number 1 Spring 1995
Youguo Liang, Sanjay Ramchander and Jandhyala L. Sharma
The Performance of Stocks: Professional Versus Dartboard Picks


The contrarian viewpoint is expressed by  Randall A. Heron, Glen A.
Larsen, Jr., and Bruce G. Resnick, of Indiana and Wake Forest
Universities, in "The Improper Use of Dartboard Portfolios as
Performance Benchmarks".

"In this paper we empirically study the improper use of dartboard
portfolios (i.e., randomly selected portfolios of stocks) as ?passive?
investment performance benchmarks for active financial decision-making
investment strategies. The problems associated with dartboard
benchmark portfolios arise because of systematic risk differences,
price pressures, and benchmarking errors. Simulations show that
dartboard portfolios are, in terms of risk-adjusted performance,
dominated by the broader market index fund constructed from the
universe of stocks from which the dartboard portfolios are selected.
The dartboard portfolios suffer from the lack of diversification due
to size and errors in security selection. The dominance of the index
fund persists even when we employ Markowitz optimization techniques to
identify ex ante efficiently diversified portfolios of the randomly
selected stocks."

The Improper Use of Dartboard Portfolios as Performance Benchmarks
http://www.financialdecisionsonline.org/current/heron.pdf


An off-the-cuff resource:

Money, Money, Money (and Investing) by Philip Greenspun 

"Common Stocks and the Efficient Market Hypothesis

Suppose somehow that you collect a non-negligible amount of cash and
want to invest it. If you are investing for the long-haul, then common
stocks are your only reasonable choice since they offer the best
return. According to the Efficient Market Hypothesis, all stocks are
fairly valued because everyone on Wall Street has the same
information. So unless you have friends who will give you insider
information, there is no reason that you should buy Microsoft rather
than General Motors. Sure, Microsoft has a monopoly and GM doesn't,
but Microsoft's monopoly is already reflected in their lofty
price/earnings ratio and GM's perennial engineering and management
problems are already reflected in their absurdly low price/revenue
ratio.

If you buy into the Efficient Market Hypothesis then you're just as
happy to buy a portfolio of stocks selected by throwing darts at the
inside pages of the Wall Street Journal. In fact, the WSJ for many
years pitted expert wall street analysts against a dartboard portfolio
and the darts almost always did better. If you don't have very much
money, then a problem with a dartboard portfolio is that you will only
be able to buy a few stocks. Your expected return will still be 7
percent per year but the variance will be extremely high because one
company going bust could wipe out all of your gains."

Money, Money, Money
http://philip.greenspun.com/materialism/money


I hope you find the information useful. Feel free to ask for
clarification if anything is unclear/broken.

---larre


Answer Strategy | Search Terms
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"picking stocks" dartboard study
WSJ dartboard contest
"random walk" "wall street"
William Sharpe dartboard study

.

Request for Answer Clarification by nronronronro-ga on 12 Sep 2004 15:19 PDT
larre---I appreciate your hard work.  But your answer completely
missed the point of my question.  Ordinarily, I would assume I had
failed to word my question correctly.

But in this case, I know my question is relatively clear because of
the comments previously posted by rabaga, hailstorm, neilzero, and
grammatoncleric.

As you can see from my question, this $60 query explicitly concerns
money management rules and *not* stock picking rules.

Randomized stock picking, dartboard contests, and the work of
Professor Sharpe clearly relate to stock picking rules.  The studies
you cite do not concern money management rules (e.g., sell any stock
which declines 5% or more).

Indeed, of all the studies you cite, I don't believe any of them
contain a single money management rule.  All your studies concern
stock picking, specifically randomized versus non-randomized stock
picking.

I'm not sure what to do.  Your answer was terrific----but it didn't
answer my question, and it wasn't helpful to me.

Please write when you can.
ron

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 12 Sep 2004 16:46 PDT
Ron, 

I've asked the editors to remove my Answer. Hopefully, another
Researcher can find what you're looking for. I believe the study
you've described is Sharpe's or Malkiel's. If not, then I'm stumped.

---larre

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 12 Sep 2004 17:09 PDT
Ron, after the answer is removed, you may wish to clarify that you are
seeking advice and commentary, rather than the studies themselves, or
perhaps describe the study you remember in more detail? That's where
we are completely out of sync from one another. I read both questions,
read every comment on the previous question, and honestly believed
that you wanted to read Sharpe's theories, or Malkiel's book which go
into extensive detail about the studies, and what makes them work or
not work. My error, certainly, and I really want to see you get what
you're looking for.

Sharpe's textbook is online...

http://www.stanford.edu/%7Ewfsharpe/mia/mia.htm

---l

Clarification of Answer by larre-ga on 12 Sep 2004 17:43 PDT
Is this on the right track?

Investors hang on to bad stocks long after they should have bailed out
because of "loss aversion behavior," according to Werner De Bondt,
associate professor at the School of Business at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison. Once you sell, your loss seems permanent, so you
hang on, hoping the stock will rebound.

http://www.edwardwillett.com/Columns/stockmarket.htm
nronronronro-ga rated this answer:5 out of 5 stars
larre----no.  The De Bondt study is behavioral finance.  But I gave
you five stars for sheer effort.  I appreciate it!

The study or studies I'm looking for would have results that appear
something like this:

"A group of 200 stocks were picked at random from the universe of
publicly-traded stocks.  Four different money management trading rules
were applied to the same 200 stocks.

Cohort 1:  No exit strategy.  All 200 stocks were passively held from
purchase until study termination.
Cohort 2:  5% decliner strategy.  Any stock which declined 5% at any
point during the study was "sold" from the portfolio.  All other
stocks were held until termination.
Cohort 3:  Any stock which rose 5% or more at any point during the
study was "sold" from the portfolio.  The remaining stocks were held
until termination.
Cohort 4:  Any stock which either rose 5% or declined 5% was "sold"
from the portfolio.  The remaining stocks were held until termination.

Results:

Cohort 1:  Portfolio gained 8% during the period studied.  This
closely approximated the S&P 500 return during the same period.
Cohort 2:  Portfolio gained 12% during the period.  50 stocks (of the
original 200) declined 5% or more and were removed from the portfolio.
 Hence, this portfolio held 150 stocks at termination.
Cohort 3:  Portfolio gained 6% during the period. 80 stocks (of the
original 200) rose 5% and were removed from the portfolio.  Hence,
this portfolio held 120 stocks at termination.
Cohort 4:  Portfolio gained 2% during the period.  50 stocks (of the
original 200) declined 5% and were removed.  80 stocks (of the
original 200) rose 5% and were removed from the portfolio.  Hence,
this portfolio held 70 stocks at termination.

Conclusions:  Only one cohort beat a passive buy-and-hold strategy. 
That was Cohort 2, which involved selling losers before they could
decline further.  Cohort 3 ("locking in" profits early) underperformed
the passive strategy of Cohort 1.  Cohort 4 (exiting both winners and
losers) performed most poorly.

Conclusion:  investors should "cut losses" early while "letting profits run."

Professor I.M. Genius


larre, if you come across something that resembles this, please let me know.

Thanks a million!
ron

Comments  
Subject: Re: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Mo
From: larre-ga on 12 Sep 2004 19:43 PDT
 
I go for dinner, and whaddaya do? 

Thank you. 

You know, of course, this earns you a tremendous 'credit' in my book.
I certainly don't expect payment for the wrong info. I'm the one who
made the mistake in interpretation. Now you've assured that I'll keep
looking until I find "The Right Stuff"!

Back in 1970, just out of school, and completely ignorant about high
finance I tried the dartboard method with $500, and sold anything that
was down each six month period, randomly picking a replacement. After
two years, I was up 3 percent on the S&P, before brokerage fees. After
paying them, concluded that until discount fees came into being (like,
not in my possible lifetime), I couldn't afford to play the market.
Subject: Re: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Money)
From: nronronronro-ga on 12 Sep 2004 20:42 PDT
 
larre---your experience in 1970 made me chuckle.  I had an almost
identical experience.  However, in the last year flat-fee trading has
become available.  Hence, the strategy may now be doable.  That's why
I'm excited about the possibilities.  Thanks again.

ron

P.S.  Mr. O'Neill (founder of Investor's Business Daily) has a rule in
his CANSLIM system that insists any decliner greater than 8% be sold
from the portfolio, regardless of the reason for the decline.  I don't
know if any studies have been performed on either his "8% decliner
rule" or on CANSLIM as a whole.  But clearly Mr. O'Neill believes in
dumping losers fast.  Thx.
Subject: Re: Stock Market --- When Good Stocks Go Bad (Reposted Question for More Mo
From: larre-ga on 14 Sep 2004 15:53 PDT
 
Just letting you know....

I am still searching, but so far nothing new. I've searched
extensively for variations 8% drop and related terms. No luck yet.
Back to the keyboard!

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