I was running my mouth last night and said that Beethoven was more a
black person than Bob Marley. What I need is an answer that proves
or disproves my statement. By black I mean skin and physical
characteristics. Thanks a bunch. |
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
24 Sep 2004 09:46 PDT
I don?t think anyone knows the answer for certain short of having done
a DNA test. Believe it or not, one has apparently BEEN done but was
inclusive for ethnicity, if that was looked for at all. The question
though has been asked a speculated upon for many, many years. The best
one can probably do is point you out to what others have said and let
you make your own case to your friends.
?Future study of Beethoven's DNA may also answer historical questions
about Beethoven's ethnicity; as a young man, Beethoven was sometimes
called "the Moor" because of his dark skin, and some historians wonder
if he had some African blood. His hair didn't show any of the wrinkles
or bends typical of people of African descent, but the jury's still
out on that question.?
BEETHOVEN?S HAIR
http://www.edwardwillett.com/Columns/beethoven.htm
?In order to make such a substantial statement, presentation of
verifiable evidence is compulsory. Let's start with what some of
Beethoven's contemporaries and biographers say about his appearance.
Frau Fisher, a close friend of Beethoven, described him with
?blackish-brown complexion.? Frederick Hertz, German anthropologist,
used these terms to describe him: ?Negroid traits, dark skin, flat,
thick nose.?
Emil Ludwig, in his book ?Beethoven,? says: ?His face reveals no trace
of the German. He was so dark that people dubbed him Spagnol
[dark-skinned].? Fanny Giannatasio del Rio, in her book ?An Unrequited
Love: An Episode in the Life of Beethoven,? wrote ?His somewhat flat
broad nose and rather wide mouth, his small piercing eyes and swarthy
[dark] complexion, pockmarked into the bargain, gave him a strong
resemblance to a mulatto.? C. Czerny stated, ?His beard--he had not
shaved for several days--made the lower part of his already brown face
still darker.?
BEETHOVEN ? REVEALING HIS TRUE IDENTITY
http://www.africawithin.com/kwaku/beethoven.htm
MY QUIET LIFE ? WAS BEETHOVEN BLACK?
http://chris.quietlife.net/archives/000219.html
You decide is this suffices as an answer inasmuch as an answer ?can? be offered.
Tutuzdad-ga
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Clarification of Question by
icecoldbeer-ga
on
24 Sep 2004 09:51 PDT
Very good well researched answer but is there any chance you could
contrast Beethoven's blackness with Bob Marley's blackness. Thanks?
|
Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
24 Sep 2004 13:50 PDT
I don't know how this is possible really since we don't know for
certain what Beethoven's ethnicity was. One cannot compare two things
is one of those things is not known.
What we do know is that Bob Marley's mother was a black Jamaican woman
named Cedella and his father, Norval Marley, was a white (or perhaps
mulatto) man of Welsh descent. Here is a photo of Bob Marley's mother
Cedelia and two of Bob's cousins on his father's side:
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39789000/jpg/_39789573_aunt203.jpg
BBC NEWS - 'Bob Marley's family on 'Welsh' roots'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/3431139.stm
Here is a photo of Heather Marley, another one of Bob's cousins.
According to her, the Marley family's lineage originated in Syria
BOB MARLEY MAGAZINE
http://www.bobmarleymagazine.com/interviews/heather.htm
Marley himself did not identify with their group:
"Many people are under the misconception that Bob Marley hated white
people. This couldn't be further from the truth. First of all, Bob
Marley's father was white, making him half-white. Furthermore, he was
very open and honest about his racial views: "I don't stand for the
black man's side, I don't stand for the white man's side. I stand for
God's side."
SURVIVAL
http://www.shop.earthlink.dealtime.com/xMPR-~PD-69197~PT-xMPR~RI-119025471108
"So, was Marley black?"
I'd say at first glance, relying on physical features alone, yes, he
could easily be considered, if not confused with, being a "black"
person.
"Would NEGRO be an accurate description of Marley?"
No. Its no more accurate that the term CAUCASIAN would be.
"Was Marley an "African"?"
He may have had some African heritage (many black, white and mulatto
Jamacians do) but he could just as well have been part Dominican,
Spanish, Island, Indian or something else.
"What's the bottom line?"
Well, we know quite a bit more about Marley than Beethoven, that's for sure.
>>We KNOW that Marley, at the very least, LOOKED black in the
conventional sense of the word. We've seen him in film and in pictures
and I think everyone would agree that if he must be visually
classified as one or the other, he does appear to be black (as black
is visually defined by many). We've HEARD that Beethoven MAY have
looked black according to some people's interpretation of what "black"
was in those days, but that doesn't mean much. There are many people
who do not defintively physically represent their ethnicity. We've
seen Beethoven's death mask however and from this we still must
conclude there is just not sufficient evidence to support EITHER
notion for certain (at least not in my mind):
DEATH MASKS
http://thanatos.net/deathmasks/gallery/Ludwig%20van%20Beethoven.jpg
>>We KNOW that Marley has black LOOKING people in his direct lineage.
We've HEARD that Beethoven MAY have had at least one ancestor (a moor)
who could have been considered "black" in those days.
Based on what we KNOW as facts then, Marley is unquestionably, as you
say, "more black" or at least "more reliably black" in physical
appearance.
Other than that, I think its safe to say that based on physical
appearance and known facts alone, Marley wins.
Regards;
tutuzdad-ga
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Request for Question Clarification by
tutuzdad-ga
on
24 Sep 2004 13:53 PDT
This sentence:
"Marley himself did not identify with their group"
Should read:
"Marley himself did not identify with EITHER group"
|
Clarification of Question by
icecoldbeer-ga
on
24 Sep 2004 14:23 PDT
I am satisfied with your response however I am not getting a button
that lets me reward you with the $10.00
Could you please post the previous stuff as an answer rather than
"request clarification" so I can close it for you. Thanks for the good
work.
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