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Subject:
physical prperties of glass
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: mike445-ga List Price: $5.00 |
Posted:
23 Oct 2004 23:43 PDT
Expires: 22 Nov 2004 22:43 PST Question ID: 419211 |
It is claimed that cathedral glass is thicker at the bottom because glass flows. Is it a property of glass to flow in the time frame of a century or so? |
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Subject:
Re: physical prperties of glass
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 24 Oct 2004 05:53 PDT Rated: |
Hi - thanks for the question. Glass does flow, but the increased thickening at the bottom of old windowpanes is not caused by this effect; That - nonuniform thickness - is an artifact of the old, now obsolete manufacturing process. This question (in the form Is glass liquid or solid?) is a FAQ and people had long, too long arguments about this in usenet groups: Is Glass Liquid or Solid? Philip Gibbs, Usenet Physics FAQ http://hypertextbook.com/physics/matter/resources.shtml pointing to http://www.weburbia.demon.co.uk/physics/glass.html This question even found its way into the urban legends collection: http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C01/C01Links/www.ualberta.ca/~bderksen/florin.html which adresses your question as follows: The Antique Windowpanes Story The question of antique windowpanes has been addressed by Plumb, 1989[2]. He noted the following: [...W]hy are the panes of antique window glass thicker on the bottom than the top? There really are observable variations in thickness, although there seem to have been no statistical studies that document the frequency and magnitudes of such variations. This author believes that the correct explanation lies in the process by which window panes were manufactured at that time: the Crown glass process. That author offers a selection from technical papers, in which physicists differ in their views. It may be too much to read, and so, lets summarise: Urban Legend collection is correct on the Crown process, but (sorry to say) wrong in conclusion that glass is a solid: This is the correct answer: Different disciplines define terms 'solid' and 'liquid' differently. Answer to question (is it a liquid?) depends on definition of liquid. However, proper discipline for this issue is a bit esoteric field of material science called Rheology (science of flow). http://dmoz.org/Science/Physics/Rheology/ According to this discipline, glass is a 'viscoelastic liquid' with a very high viscosity. Viscosity strongly depends on temperature and can be measured. Value is such in the geometry of a window pane you will not see the flow in a century or two, at the room temperature. But in geological times - that is a different story - on that scale even the rocks do flow. Read about the so called Search Terms: Deborah number The Deborah number is a dimensionless number which characterizes how "fluid" a material is. Even solids "flow" if ... ://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Deborah+number&btnG=Google+Search Hedgie |
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Subject:
Re: physical prperties of glass
From: treadora-ga on 24 Oct 2004 01:51 PDT |
Analysis shatters cathedral glass myth http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc98/5_30_98/fob3.htm A new study debunks the persistent belief that stained glass windows in medieval cathedrals are thicker at the bottom because the glass flows slowly downward like a very viscous liquid. Edgar Dutra Zanotto of the Federal University of Sao Carlos in Brazil calculated the time needed for viscous flow to change the thickness of different types of glass by a noticeable amount. Cathedral glass would require a period "well beyond the age of the universe," he says. Suffice it to say that the glass could not have thickened since the 12th century. Zanotto reports his finding in the May American Journal of Physics. The study demonstrates dramatically what many scientists had reasoned earlier. "You would have to bring normal glass to 350° Celsius in order to begin to see changes," says William C. LaCourse, assistant director of the NSF Industry-University Center for Glass Research at Alfred (N.Y.) University. Viscosity depends on the chemical composition of the glass. Even germanium oxide glass, which flows more easily than other types, would take 1032 years to sag, Zanotto calculates. Medieval stained glass contains impurities that could lower the viscosity and speed the flow, but even a significant reduction wouldn't alter the conclusion, he remarks, since the age of the universe is only 1010 years. The difference in thickness sometimes observed in antique windows probably results from glass manufacturing methods, says LaCourse. Until the 19th century, the only way to make window glass was to blow molten glass into a large globe then flatten it into a disk. Whirling the disk introduced ripples and thickened the edges. For structural stability, it would make sense to install those thick portions in the bottom of the pane, he says. Later glass was drawn into sheets by pulling it from the melt on a rod, a method that made windows more uniform. Today, most window glass is made by floating liquid glass on molten tin. This process, developed about 30 years ago, makes the surface extremely flat. The origins of the stained glass myth are unclear, but the confusion probably arose from a misunderstanding of the amorphous atomic structure of glass, in which atoms do not assume a fixed crystal structure. "The structure of the liquid and the structure of the [solid] glass are very similar," says LaCourse, "but thermodynamically they are not the same." Glass does not have a precise freezing point; rather, it has what's known as a glass transition temperature, typically a few hundred degrees Celsius. Cooled below this temperature, liquid glass retains its amorphous structure yet takes on the physical properties of a solid rather than a supercooled liquid. "At first, I thought that the [sagging window idea] was a Brazilian myth," Zanotto wrote, but he soon learned that people all over the world share the belief. Repeated in reference books, in science classes, and recently over the Internet, the idea has been repeatedly pulled out to explain ripply windows in old houses. "For the layperson, it makes a lot of sense," says LaCourse. In 1989, Robert C. Plumb of Worcester (Mass.) Polytechnic Institute suggested in the Journal of Chemical Education that definitive proof might require an instruction book written in the Middle Ages advising glaziers to install glass panes with the thick end at the bottom. Now if only such a handbook could be found. From Science News, Vol. 153, No. 22, May 30, 1998, p. 341. Copyright Ó 1998 by Science Service. |
Subject:
Re: physical prperties of glass
From: guzzi-ga on 24 Oct 2004 18:30 PDT |
An amusing upshot of the glass flowing myth is that restorers have on occasion reversed the more stable thick end down in the belief that in a few hundred years the glass will have flowed to uniform thickness. Glass flowing can be observed in old TV EHT tubes where the curve of the top cap noticeably sinks. This is however only after many years at elevated temperature. Best |
Subject:
Re: physical prperties of glass
From: fstokens-ga on 28 Oct 2004 15:23 PDT |
There is a book called, as I recall, "Glass Handbook" which includes pictures from an experiment where glass rods were clamped in a bent position for something like ten years. When the rods were unclamped at the end of this time, they remained curved at first, but within a day they were again perfectly straight. |
Subject:
Re: few more comments on flow of glass
From: hedgie-ga on 01 Nov 2004 06:29 PST |
While added comments confirm and elaborate what I have written in my answer, I feel a comment on the comments is in order, to prevent possible misconceptions. First, I want to warn readers to be careful with numbers which start with 10 as in treadora's: "..since the age of the universe is only 1010 years. " That would be pretty young universe. If you look back at the original article the number is 10.E10 years - this in scientific notation. Original uses exponential notation - and during careless copying the superscript gets leveled. At least 20% of large physics numbers on the web get totally messed up like this, Moral is: 1) use scientific notation on the web http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/textbook/scinot.html 2) do not copy whole articles (even if you have copyright holder's permission) - just give a quote and a pointer (link, URL) of the whole. 3) re-read what you wrote / copied By the way - viscosity of the glass (depending on the kind) is about 10.E40 Pas at room temperature, which comes out (when copying mechanically) as (WRONG) 1041 Pascal.seconds. What it means is this: You make a rod, 1 mm square in cross-section and use it to hang 1 kg mass. The stress in the rod is about E7 Pa (Pascals) and so speed of creep is E-33 inverse seconds. That is rate of strain. Strain is dimensionless number dl/l where l is length of your rod and dl the elongation due to the stress. It is very slow, but it is a real flow. fstokens-ga seems to imply that deformation of glass is fully elastic. That is not so. All viscoelastic materials (I did provide links to rheology sites, right?) have (spectrum of) relaxation times. If you deform (bend) any material and release the force, part will recover - that was elastic deformation, and part will stay bent permanently- that was plastic part of the deformation. The ratio of the two will depend on ratio of relaxation time to the time material was bent. This is more visible in polymers (commonly called plastics) then with glass (and this ratio is called Deborah number) of the test. There was more nonsense written about this 'flow issue', than I have time or patience to mention or refute, but just in brief: Glass transition temperature (property of all platics) has nothing much to do with this (it is rubbery to brittle state transition) Issue of amorphous vs crystalline has very little to do with this: both solids and liquids can be both amorphous or crystaline (see e.g. LCDs) and this property (crystalinity) is not either/or - but a matter of degree. This property does not determine what is liquid nor what the viscosity will be. By and large (this is moral 2): -considering the interest and passions which these issues tend to raise, I believe we should teach elements of Rheology in elementary schools. Lacking that, I recommend that interested parties look at the rheology links I provided. (particularly if they intend to write about it). It is understandable, interesting, and agrees with common experience. The classical materials sciences - theory of elasticity and hydrodynamics - are abstract, limiting cases (of zero and infinity Debrah number) which exist mostly in academia, rarely in real life, and have just few special engineering applications. hedgie |
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