Plato said: No thing more excellent nor more valuable than wine was
ever granted mankind by God.  Where?

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 13 Nov 2004 20:22 PST

It wasn't Plato, but Suttaford!  Or at least, Stuttaford paraphrasing Plato.  

A Dr. Thomas Stuttaford wrote a widely-read article in the 1990's that
said, in part:

It was Plato's opinion that nothing more excellent, nor more valuable,
than wine was ever granted to mankind by the gods...

==========

This is the earliest cite for this phrase that I could find.

Apparently, his attribution of this sentiment to Plato (which seems
fair enough) made it's way into the budding internet literature not as
a paraphrase, but as a direct quote.

I'd be happy to provide some details about Stuttaford's original
article if you think that would serve as an answer to your question.

Let me know.

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by auswine-ga on 14 Nov 2004 17:46 PST

I am simply seeking an attribution for this quote.  I am quite
comfortable if it wasn't Plato, or even if it wasn't Plato directly,
but I would like to know if possible who wrote it and where I can find
it.
Many thanks for your help.

---

Request for Question Clarification by pafalafa-ga on 14 Nov 2004 18:23 PST

Hello again,

Well...here's the excerpt from the article I found.  Let me know if it
meets your needs:

==========

The Times (London)

February 20, 1997

Cheers - and the best of health

by Dr Thomas Stuttaford


A health drink that isn't quite wine

It was Plato's opinion that nothing more excellent, nor more valuable,
than wine was ever granted to mankind by the gods. But some people's
drinking is limited for medical reasons - longstanding liver or any
pancreatic disease, for instance....This means that they have missed
out on the proven cardio-protective powers of red wine and its as yet
unexplained beneficial influence on all-cause mortality - the medical
profession's jargon for the overall deathrate....
==========


As I said, I could find no earlier references to this phrase...the
above excerpt appears to be the first.

pafalafa-ga

---

Clarification of Question by auswine-ga on 15 Nov 2004 16:36 PST

Many thanks.  I think that will do nicely for my purposes.
Regards.

auswine-ga,

Thanks for getting back to me.  I'm glad to hear this is the
information you were seeking.  I'll repost it here for the sake of
completeness.

Let me know if there's anything else you need on this.

Cheers,

pafalafa-ga


==========

The Times (London)

February 20, 1997

Cheers - and the best of health

by Dr Thomas Stuttaford


A health drink that isn't quite wine

It was Plato's opinion that nothing more excellent, nor more valuable,
than wine was ever granted to mankind by the gods. But some people's
drinking is limited for medical reasons - longstanding liver or any
pancreatic disease, for instance....This means that they have missed
out on the proven cardio-protective powers of red wine and its as yet
unexplained beneficial influence on all-cause mortality - the medical
profession's jargon for the overall deathrate....
==========


As I said, I could find no earlier references to this phrase...the
above excerpt appears to be the first.

pafalafa-ga



search strategy:  Searched Google and numerous text-based databases
for the phrase [ more excellent nor more valuable than wine ]

---

Request for Answer Clarification by auswine-ga on 19 Nov 2004 20:22 PST

My only problem with an attribution to Dr Thomas Stuttaford in "The
Times" of February 20, 1997 is that exactly the same "Plato" phrase
was quoted by Dr Andrew L. Waterhouse in his "Wine and Heart Disease"
article in the English journal "Chemistry & Industry", May 1, 1995.

Perhaps there is an earlier attribution?

Regards.

---

Clarification of Answer by pafalafa-ga on 20 Nov 2004 13:43 PST

Well I'll be....!


I checked a few more sources, and actually came up with a reference
that goes back to 1986:

=====


Notable potable quotables 
MICHAEL LONSFORD 

Houston Chronicle  
22 January 1986

RECENTLY I chatted with Brooks Firestone, and he told me about a
little booklet he had prepared as a presentation at the California
Wine Festival in Monterey...Firestone had garnered many quotations
about wine from historical figures and had hired a couple of actors to
act out the vignettes. It was, a friend told me, a smash at Monterey.

Well, I recently obtained the booklet, and thought you might like to
read what some famous people had to say about wine and their world. .
. .

Plato: ``No thing more excellent nor more valuable than wine was ever
granted mankind by God.''


==========

So apparently, it was this Brooks Firestone fellow who popularized the
phrase, although that still leaves open the question of where **HE**
came up with it.

I've been through every single reference that Plato makes to "wine"
and have not seen anything even remotely similar to the phrase in
question.  I don't believe that Plato actually is the source, though
that still leaves open the question of just who came up with it. 
Firestone, perhaps...?

Wish I could provide more definitive info, but despite a lot of
looking, I've come up with a dead end in terms of any more leads.

If you can think of a particular avenue of searching you'd like me to
pursue, please let me know and I'll get right on it.

And (this is important!), if this answer is unsatisfactory for your
needs, let me know that as well, and I'll ask the editors to remove it
so that another researcher can take a crack at it.

Thanks,

pafalafa-ga

---

Request for Answer Clarification by auswine-ga on 21 Nov 2004 15:57 PST

The heart of the matter is simply, from where did all of these people
access the quote.  However, given the difficulty of attributing this
directly to Plato I think we will call it a day and admit that a
direct attribution is unlikely to be established.
With many thanks for your help. Regards.

Clearly an oft-cited quotation on the 'net, but I haven't had any luck
finding a more specific or accurate attribution for it.

Plato does spend a lot of time discussing wine and intoxication in The
Laws, however, though in a more nuanced fashion, exploring its assets
and its perils. (See esp. Books 1 and 2).

http://www.classicallibrary.org/plato/dialogues/laws/book1.htm
http://www.classicallibrary.org/plato/dialogues/laws/book2.htm