I am having an ongoing conversation with my neighbor about the issue
of separation of church and state. She is wanting me to join the local
DAR group; I did attend a few meetings because I was interested in
genealogy, but the prayers and patriotic songs dissuaded me  :-(

Her words:
"This country was not created for people of all faiths; If you read
history, rather than revised history, it is clear that it was
established as a Christian nation, where people of all faiths were
welcomed. I believe that is because loving people means wanting to
bring them all to a knowledge of truth in Christ, His equality and His
freedom from the burdens of life. It was never a secular nation,
though it is getting more that way in only the last 50 years. The
Constitution did not prohibit states from having state churches, just
that the nation would not have one state church. There were state
churches in some states decades after the Constitution."

Not being either a history buff or a Biblical scholar, I'm wondering
if these statements are true?

Can't a simple-minded Zen Moodist exist in this country without being
pestered by evangelicals?

Does your neighbor have a Confederate flag in her yard?  :-)

they're Libertarians . . .

TS,

I was a boy scout, and (for a little bit) a member of 4-H.  The
assumption that you must believe in god to be a good member was quite
a deterrent.  Christianity is embedded in this nations foundation,
from the pledge of allegiance to the dollar bill...Just like the
organizations mentioned above it seems that I must be Christian to be
a good American (how else can I pledge allegiance or swear in court
without lying).  As 'revolutionary' as the thought of a free country
was in those times I?m sure the prospect of a non-Christian nation was
beyond the imaginations of our fore-fathers.  From what I know of
those days the exclusion of God?s name from legal documents, rituals
etc. would meet with quite a bit of criticism.  The separation of
church and state was more of a move to prevent religious leaders from
ruling and to keep the government from being able to regulate the
people?s religion.  I?m sure in 1776 religious freedom meant that you
can be any type of Christian you want to be.

In F.D.R?s 1941 speech about the famous ?four freedoms? he defines the
freedom of religion as ?The?freedom of every person to worship God in
his own way.?  This assumes that everone worships God.

I found a site that answers you question perfectly, this site begins:
??the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in
the first amendment.  The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make
no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof..."  The statement about a wall of separation
between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by
Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. 
The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists,
another denomination, were to become the national religion.  This was
very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in
England by the state established church.  Jefferson made it clear in
his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be
that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to
men how to worship God.  Jefferson's letter from which the phrase
"separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment
rights.  Jefferson wrote: ?I contemplate with solemn reverence that
act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature
should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or
prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of
separation between Church and State.? ?
[http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html]

This has always been a Christian country.  While things are becoming
less so in these days of political correctness the Christian
foundations of this country are too solid to shake.  For all its
faults, it is as much a part of our culture and our history as the
Greek gods to Greece.  I had, for the longest time, wished that
religion could be eliminated in this country?but after reading about
how that worked out in China I have come to respect our countries
religious heritage as the Chinese now respect theirs.

-Fractl

dear fractl,

thanks for your great comments

I hope to continue this conversation, but we're remodelling and this
week the house is wreaking of oil-based paint, causing headaches,
nausea . . .  can't stay in to work on my computer.

I hope you stay tuned; I should be back in action by the end of this week

cheers!

ts

It is true Your Country was not created by people of all faiths. Your
Country was created by God or the Big Bang (whichever).

It is wrong Your country was not established by the Christians. Your
country was founded by the ancestors of the American Indians.

It is wrong Your country did not welcome other faiths. Your country
was invaded by the American Indian faiths, Christianity and other
religions after that.

Long after the country's constitution ceases to have precedence, Your
country will continue to have different States and different
religions.

And that?s the beauty of it, a Zen Moodist would have not have had the
opportunity to come into existence otherwise.

brijmohun,

I think you?re trying to misinterpret what I said by taking it too
literally.  Yes the universes creation can be technically linked to
the countries creation...but I wouldn?t consider writing that on a
history test.  I think you know I was referring to the people that
founded the US.  All of your statements are using a different
definition of ?country? as I had intended.  You seem to be taking it
as ?the land in which people of a given nationality reside?...I was
thinking of a country as the nation itself (and thus the policies and
government of that nation).  My definition is more abstract and it may
have been more appropriate for me to use ?nation? in my last post.
Given the context of the question I feel that the definition of
?country? as a government or nation should have been implied.


Okay...I'll take the bait (or I'll take debate, if that is the case)
What, is a Zen Moodist?  It comes up with no results in Google and I?m
sure you included it in your last post because you were hoping I would
ask about it.

-Fractl

TS I will be glad to discuss this topic ad nausium (which may be the
case for you considering the paint).  I hope to hear from you soon.

fractl

I've no interest in debating any issue ad nauseam.
I haven't a clue on what a Zen Moodist is, I just read it in
timespacette's question. Which brings me to the point - Are you
writing for your own personal enjoyment of 'reading your own writing'
or were you seriously attempting to answer timespacette's question.

It's important to read and understand a question before you attempt to answer it.

However, I have to apologies for being the cause of stirring an attack
on my comments. I merely intended to stimulate the thought, accuracy
and integrity required in asking a question. No bad feelings and hope
to debate further with you in the future.

The 'ad nausium' comment at the bottom of my last post was for
Timespacette...I abbreviated the name TS (where one would expect to
see a PS).  I shouldn't have gotten defensive there, especially
without making sure my information was accurate.  If there was an
option to revoke a statement on GA I would, though I think that goes
against Googles beliefs.  Just pretend that comment never existed.

Most comments I post in GA are either to answer, or assist in
answering the posted question.  Topics of this nature are geared more
toward discussion, however.  I'd say I'm posting on this question
because:

25% I want to answer the question (note that I got this part out of the way 1st)
15% To hear myself talk
60% I want prompt others to talk

I'm not a fan of that 15% of myself...but I'll admit it's there.

I guess I need to ask Timespacette what a Zen Moodist is.

My apologies,
         Fractl

We are also forgetting that the men who founded the country (I'm for
women's rights and respecting their place in history, but no women
signed the constitution or the Declaration of Independence) were not
what we would recognize as Christians.  They were Diests who were
heavily influenced by the enlightenment.  They believed in a
clockmaker god who created the world, then left it alone to run by its
own natural laws.  In Benjamin Franklin's Autobiography, he equates
Jesus with Socrates.  Thomas Jefferson edited the New Testament to
remove all miracles and references to the divinity of Christ.

Furthermore, I am tired of people talking about how America was
founded by people seeking religious freedom.  One boatload of Pilgrims
backed by a for-profit company did not found America.  Jamestown
(another for-profit venture)had already been here for decades when the
Pilgrims landed.