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Subject:
TIME AND SPACE
Category: Science Asked by: bobberino2-ga List Price: $30.00 |
Posted:
04 Jan 2005 20:58 PST
Expires: 03 Feb 2005 20:58 PST Question ID: 452113 |
I DO NOT HAVE A HIGH LEVEL OF EDUCATION -[call me a simple senior ]-,SO THIS MAY SEEM A SILLY QUESTION WITH AN OBVIOUS ANSWER. I OCCASIONALY COME ACROSS MENTION OF THE BIG BANG THEORY, OR NEWS BITS OF ANOUTHER MULTI BILLION LIGHT YEAR VIEW OF AN EVENT THAT OCCURRED SHORTLY AFTER THE BIG BANG. MY UNDERSTANDING - EVERYTHING STARTED FROM A SPECIFIC POINT AT ASPECIFIC TIME -" BANG "- THEN WE [ formed from the particles and gasses on their thirteen billion lightyear voyage ] HAVE BEEN TRAVELLING AWAY FROM THE POINT OF CREATION AT HIGH RATE OF SPEED FOR 130,000,000 CENTURIES MY QUESTION -IF WE , OR THE DUST THAT WOULD FORM US , LEFT THAT BIG BANG CREATION THIRTEEN BILLION YEARS AGO ,WOULD NOT THE LIGHT BY WHICH WE WOULD SEE THE EVENT [because light travels so much faster than us ] HAVE PASSED US AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR JOURNEY , AND NOT BE BACK THERE STILL ,WAITING FOR US TO VIEW ?? SIMPLE BUT CLEAR ANSWER - FOR A SIMPLE BUT CLOUDY MIND - PLEASE THANKYOU. |
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Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
Answered By: juggler-ga on 05 Jan 2005 00:25 PST Rated: |
Hello. I think that the basic problem is in your statement, "MY UNDERSTANDING - EVERYTHING STARTED FROM A SPECIFIC POINT..." Astronomers do not believe that the "Big Bang" was an explosion radiating from a specific point. See: "Where was the center of the Big Bang? The Big Bang has no center. It is not an explosion radiating from a point." - Edward Wright - UCLA Cosmology - Frequently Asked Questions; See Illustrations at: http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html From the BBC: "Because of its name many people think of the Big Bang as a kind of explosion that happened at some specific point in space, but this isn't correct, as the Universe didn't spring from one central ignition point. Instead, during the Big Bang space was first created and then stretched. The easiest way to understand this tricky concept is to think of the Universe as a fruitcake in an oven. Imagine you are a bit of fruit inside the cake. As it bakes, the cake rises and all the other bits of fruit around you move further and further away. No matter whereabouts in the cake you are, everything around you is moving away at the same rate. But unlike the fruitcake, there is no centre to the Universe." source: BBC - Science & Nature > Space > Origins > Big Bang http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/origins/bigbang/index.shtml From astronomer Dave Kornreich: "If the Big Bang occurred in a specific point in space, spewing galaxies in all directions, then we would expect our galaxy to be one of many galaxies sitting on an expanding shell of galaxies, with the center of that shell being the point of the "Bang." This, however, is not what we see, and not what the BB predicts. If we were on a shell of galaxies, we would see many galaxies when we looked in directions along the shell, and few galaxies when we looked perpendicular to (up out of or down into) the shell. Moreover, distances and redshifts in such a scenario would depend on the direction we were looking. As we looked tangent to the shell, we would see many nearby galaxies with small redshifts. As we looked down into the shell, we would see more distant galaxies with higher redshifts. (Up out of the shell we would see only empty space.) This is not what we see. Galaxies, distant and nearby, are evenly distributed all around us." source: Cornell University - Ask an Astromer: "Can we find the place where the Big Bang happened?" http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=71 Can we see back to the time of the Big Bang with telescopes? Actually, no. The reason for this is not that light from the time of the Big Bang would have already passed us, but rather because at the time of the Big Bang the universe was too hot and dense for light to escape. From Scientific American magazine: "Until the age of about 300,000 years, the young universe consisted of no more than a cloud of photons tightly coupled with ionized precursors of matter. This was a "dark" time--no light could escape the burgeoning universe since all the photons were trapped and scattered within the plasma of ionized matter. As the universe cooled, however, conditions finally began to allow stable atoms to form, releasing the photons from matter?s grip and creating the beginnings of what researchers have termed the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB)." source: Scientific American http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EBE39-691E-1CEE-93F6809EC5880000 "When you read about cosmology, you might have read about the cosmic microwave background (CMB). Before the CMB originated, the universe was opaque to light. So, we can never see beyond the CMB, and due to this, we can never see to the instant of the Big Bang." source: Cornell University - Ask an Astromer: http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=167 From NASA: "For approximately the first 400,000 years after the Big Bang, the universe was a seething cauldron of matter (electrons, protons, neutrons, and a very small percentage of heavier atomic nuclei), and light (photons). Since photons scatter or bounce off electrons, the universe was opaque. As space expanded, the universe cooled and the electrons combined with the protons (and other atomic nuclei) to create the first atoms, primarily hydrogen. The first light of creation could finally be freed from its pinball-like interactions with the electrons. The universe became transparent." source: NASA: "Microwave Anisotropy Probe (MAP) - Unveiling the Early Universe" http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/topstory/20010612mapfacts.html Although we can't see all the way back to the time of the Big Bang, the Hubble Space Telescope has recently capture images of objects dating from 700 million to 900 million years after the Big Bang. See: "Hubble photographs reach back to universe as toddler," Knight Ridder, Sep. 29, 2004: http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/robert_s_boyd/9793006.htm HubbleSite.org: "Hubble Approaches the Final Frontier: The Dawn of Galaxies" http://hubblesite.org/newscenter/newsdesk/archive/releases/2004/28/ ---------- search terms: "big bang" "specific point" "center of the big bang" "universe was opaque" "big bang" "big bang" years "no light" I hope this helps. |
bobberino2-ga
rated this answer:
and gave an additional tip of:
$7.00
HEY- TIME FOR ME TO SLOW DOWN AND WRAP MY MIND AROUND NEW [to me] IDEAS. FOR YOUR ANSWER - 4 STARS . FOR MAKING ME THINK - $7.00 |
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Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: probonopublico-ga on 05 Jan 2005 01:58 PST |
If the Universe is a fruitcake in an oven how did the Chef get out to buy the ingredients? |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: ticbol-ga on 05 Jan 2005 02:46 PST |
juggler-ga said "if". Meaning, not true. If jugglere didn't use "if", then it could be true. And he is not lying. That is if there are gazilions of universes. "Uni" signifies one only, okay. So does unique, or one of a kind. But there are so many uniques. So there could be so many universes too. Universe is a kind also. (Who could prove there are not many universes? Has someone got of our universe yet? Everybody (not incluing me) believes that there is only one universe because everybody (now include me there) is inside our universe. Blah, blah, blah.) Anyway, I believe billiards of chefs, in one set only (another set could be warrior tots blowing mind-boggling balloons), baked billiards of universes inside mind-boggling ovens. They did cakes, so there must be stores to buy their ingredients from. (One of the igredients is bobberino2-ga.) Blah, blah. Another subset could be non-chefs baking mind-boggling eggs inside mind-boggling microwave ovens. Blah. ----------- I learned somewhere in Google that in British Numbering System, 1 billiard is 1*10^15. No kidding. |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: juggler-ga on 05 Jan 2005 13:07 PST |
bobberino2: Thank you for the tip. -juggler |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: sfojpl-ga on 05 Jan 2005 16:46 PST |
Hey ticbol-ga, I think you've been eating too much of that cosmic fruitcake... |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: cheekyspanky-ga on 05 Jan 2005 19:25 PST |
I'd just like to thank you for teaching me something new - I always thought the Big Bang came from a single point. This question and answer has been really interesting. :) Although too much thinking about the universe makes my brain ache! |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: ticbol-ga on 06 Jan 2005 03:36 PST |
Hello, sfojpl-ga. Ummm, I really don't know if one or some of the fruitcakes I've tasted so far came from that Big Bang. The cakes seemed to taste almost the same, year in and year out. Or, depending on the visible molds on them, and maybe on their ages (I think most of these fruitcakes are just recycled: you keep some of those you received every year, then by random picking, you get one of those 1958 fruitcakes and send it to somebody else as a gift before Christmas. And you in turn perhaps receive more fruitcakes of vintages 678 BC, 1405, 1999, etc.), some tasted differently. I paid no attention on those odd tastes, though. I never thought these fruitcakes would become a topic in GA. (Neither did I think of a GA then also, so....) I doubt if anyone of those came from that particular Big Bang. As mentioned by juggler-ga, the cake expanded or the ingredients moved away from the perceived center in constant (no acceleration) velocity. So if I am also an ingredient of that Big Bang, I couldn't have got hold of a fellow ingredient. Because the fellow ingredients that took off as close as possible to me from that center should miles away from me at anytime before I was introduced to these everpresent fruitcakes. Because from that center I think we moved away radially---not in parallel. So as time went/goes by, we went/go farther and farther away from each other. Because of the constant velocites, no other later-leaving fellow ingredient could have catched up or come closer to me, and I couldn't have catched up or overtaken any earlier-moving fellow ingredient. (I am talking earthly Physics.) ---- Why should the beginning of the, er, our universe be sometimes thought of as a Big Bang. Why not Big Collapse, Mind-boggling Shrink, or the likes. This could be corollary to that other popular line of thought on the beginning or non-beginning of our universe (It's been there all the time). Like a Big Bang happening somewhere, why not a Big Collapse somewhere also? Analogous to the black holes, only this time, due to the mind-boggling masses, the "ingredients" wouldn't dissapear yet. And a total black hole wouldn't be attained. --------- Why is our universe thought of as flat? If it were flat (whether curved or straight) then there must be things controlling, if not regulating, our universe to stay flat. That is why there should be more than one universe. Some forces/universes/etc, closer to our universe, must be wittingly or unwittingly made/make our universe flat. Easier to think is our universe is being pushed at two opposite directions ("Above and Bellow"). More tickling to think is these "forces" are actually pulling our universe from two opposite directions. Imagine: Above and Below sides of our universe. Those "forces" at Above side are applying their pull on the Below side. And those "forces" at the Below side are applying theirs on the Above side. Being pushed, or being pulled as mentioned above, caused/causes our universe to be flattened. If the opposing "forces" are of equal "strength", then our universe is a straight flat. If the opposing "forces" are unequal in "strength", then our universe is a curved flat. If pushed, our flattened universe is "open" at its edges. Ingredients can escape. If pulled, then our flattened universe is "closed" at its edges. Ingredients cannot escape. Or, our flattened universe is not pushed/being-pushed or not pulled/being-pulled by two opposing "forces". It could be cut/being-cut by lawn-mower-like "forces" at the Above side and Bellow side. Mind-boggling blades, eh! Or, "things" similar to our earthly microbes do eat any ingredient going beyond the "demilitarized zones" above and below our universe. --------- The universe is flat. Nebulas are flat. Our galaxy the Milky Way is flat. Our solar system is flat. Saturn's Belt is flat. I wonder why. |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: ticbol-ga on 09 Jan 2005 04:28 PST |
Nobody questioned my 2nd comment above, so let me question it. What Saturn's Belt? >>>Well, many call it ring or rings. I see them revolving around the stomach or middle or half-body of Saturn, so, belt. Rings are for fingers, earlobes, noses, lips, navels (maybe), but not around the bellies of people. Or, maybe I should have written, Saturn's Hula Hoop. Constant velocities? >>>No. I meant the same constant velocity for all ingredients. It may not be true, but it is in line with juggler-ga's supposition. No acceleration? What happened to F=ma? There must be acceleration. And if F and m are constants, then acceleration must be constant also. What about v = at? If a and v are constants, then t should be constant also. And if t is constant, then...cannot be. Time cannot be constant; it changes. >>>Okay, so there must be a. And since t varies, and v was said to be constant, hence a must vary for constant v. Then if a varies, then one of the F and m should vary, or both F and m should vary. But m is constant. So F is the one changing? Why would F change? How? What would add to the initial F? If m is the one that changes, then the ingredients add mass as they go farther and farther from the center. So a speck of dust could become a star in time? No way. Therefore, in order not to complicate matters, let us just be content or limit ourselves to what was assumed. That v is constant. It is about fruitcakes, remember. Of course you know or could think why the Belt, solar system, Milky Way and nebulas are flat. >>>Saturn's Rings and the sun's planets are easy. They revolve about, or almost perpendicular to, the axes of rotation of Saturn and the sun, respectively. They cannot fly away out of their orbits because of the gravitational pull of Saturn or the sun. They align in a band at the middle because that's where the greatest mass or the centers of gravity of Saturn or the sun. But what about the galaxies, nebulas? They have single bodies of mass at their centers that rotate on axes? Or, the centers be conglomerations of bodies of masses that rotate about a common axis for each group? Huge "black holes" at their centers? Rotating black holes? And, what about the universe? It is flat because its ingredients revolve around the universe's center? The universe has a center? Big Bang? A single Big Bang? It is not a Big Bang but a single rotating source that releases matter by force? By many "bangs"? No! |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: quarksphinx-ga on 11 Jan 2005 20:03 PST |
Being human is cool. We can play answers to our own questions. Since we do not know so much about our universe we find our universe interesting. What could ever happen to a person who knows everything? I think he may wish to die for good. : > |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: lilomar-ga on 17 Jan 2005 17:11 PST |
Where did you get the idea that our universe is "flat"? the universe exists in four, possibly more, dementions, the only reference ive ever heard to a universe that is "flat" or "curved" is when talking about Einstiens views of gravity, which is simplified so that we can imagine it, just try picturing a "curved" 4-d universe and youll find out that it's a lot simpler just to pretend its flat and use that terminology |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: spookysr-ga on 25 Jan 2005 21:07 PST |
Actually no answer is absolute. Sir Issac Newton said on his death bed that scientists, like himself, are like little boys at the seashore contemplating things they really don't understand. We can never really KNOW absolutley what the right answer is. However, scientists battling for funding and white paper recognition will come up with wild empirically unproven theories only to be debunked by a space mission like Cassina-Huyghens. The standard thinking which has not been absolutley debunked yet is that the big bang started with a created quantum singularity the size of the head of a pin at a specific point in space. Nobody knows where that point is. Theorectically everything radiated outward to form an eggshaped eliptoid shape today. Spinning galaxies are an example of vortices created by a vast explosion. There is theorectically an outer edge that is still expanding. Pulsars appear to be the outer markers as its the farthest we can see with the Arecibo PR type radio-telescopes. Scientists think that legacy-gravity will one day pull it all back, but I doubt it. Yes the light waves/particles from the big bang would pass the first Adam (for creationists) many billions of years before he was created from the stuff of the big bang. I don't see why that's important. But the sound (or actually the radio waves) from the big bang can still be heard (or seen) today. It was discovered by two scientists (Penzias and Wilson) at Bell Labs 40 some years ago http://www.bell-labs.com/history/laser/invention/cosmology.html . If you want to see the remnants or legacy of that big bang (omni-directional radio noise from outer space) turn your rabbit-earred TV set on. Find a blank channel with white noise (snow). Turn the brightness down until you just see little random specks of light popping through the darkness. That is theorectically legacy noise from the big bang. Penzias and Wilson proved that it comes from all directions. So explain what it is if you don't believe that. Its funny how they accidently discovered it while trying to track down this strange noise entering their microwave antenna in New Jersey. Spooky "I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." (Sir Isaac Newton - circa March 20, 1727 ) |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: bobberino2-ga on 27 Jan 2005 00:06 PST |
Lottsa deep thoughts out there, [and some lite ] . All appreciated ! Thanx all - bobberino2 |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: fluxrez-ga on 11 Feb 2005 13:42 PST |
It comes from all directions yes likes from... stars! the noise is no proof of the big bang certainly possible Source: http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-V1/1evlch01c.htm |
Subject:
Re: TIME AND SPACE
From: jadbal-ga on 23 Mar 2005 13:44 PST |
juggler-ga quoted: As the universe cooled, however, conditions finally began to allow stable atoms to form, releasing the photons from matter?s grip and creating the beginnings of what researchers have termed the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB)." my understanding of cooling is that energy (heat) has to go somewhere in order for an object to be cooled. if we're talking about the universe cooling, then where is the heat going? |
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