Have comprehensive studies (or epidemiological data) been done
regarding sleep requirements in humans and the effects of not meeting
those requirements?  Also, is 8-9 hours' sleep per night a universal
phenonmenon, typical of most cultures or is it just a Western
standard?  I've also heard anecdotally that individuals will blood
sugar problems are usually night owls.  Any statistics about that?

Time magazine had an interesting cover story called "The New Science
of Sleep" last month. The full article isn't available online, but you
might see whether your local library has a copy of the December 20,
2004 issue of Time.

Pink,

Did you happen to read the article.  Comments?  Synopsis.  I'll look
for Time, but it's probably off the shelves now.  Did it say anything
about people who sleep 3-4 hours nightly?

The article did not concern itself with the amount of sleep required,
but on the functions of different kinds of sleep, and the "quality" of
sleep rather than the quantity. Particularly interesting to me was a
discussion of research on slow-wave sleep and its relationship to the
ability to learn.

I'm not sure whether or not this link from the Canadian version of
Time will work for non-subscribers, but it's worth a try:

http://www.timecanada.com/columnist.adp?columnist=Christine_Gorman&storyid=15&part=4

Pink,

Yes, the site let me in.  Thanks for taking the time out to consider
it as an option.  The article appears to be very interesting and, yes,
I agree to being intrigued myself on the implications of slow-wave
sleep.

I've know very few people who can "apparently" function on four hours
of sleep.  With that in mind, though, chimpanzees, who are genetically
our closest relatives, need 9.7 hours of sleep.  And, so did Einstein,
according to legend.  But, for those who need less sleep, I'm
wondering if something is lost.  Just curious.

It's fascinating to note what a wide variation there can be in sleep requirements.

My 78-year-old mother sleeps four or five hours a night, and she's
healthy, active, and sharp as a tack.

Unfortunately, I seem to have inherited my sleep patterns from my late
father, who slept ten to twelve hours. If I get less than ten hours of
sleep on a regular basis, my health suffers.

Fortunately, Google Answers enables me to structure my life around
this need for extra sleep. In earlier years, when I worked an 8-to-5
job, it was not easy for me to obtain the amount of sleep that my body
and mind needed, and I paid the price in bodily and mental ailments.

Do think that it's likely your mom "cat naps" during the day?  That
could possibly account for her apparently not needing to sleep that
much at night.

I'm like you - sleep is essential and getting less than I require has
a definite impact.  In fact, dreaming is equal in importance, as well.

Here's an interesting list of different mammals' sleep requirements. 
Dunno how accurate it is, but it comes from a good source.

http://www.npi.ucla.edu/sleepresearch/encarta/MediaMax3.htm

Many years ago I did a business expansion just before the economy took
a nosedive into recession. I finished up working 18 plus hour days for
a couple of years just to keep the business treading water and to pay
the bank and because I couldn?t afford to pay anyone else to do the
work. I am not asking you to feel sorry for me. I am making the point
that some people can do it if they have to do it. I am not in any way
intentionally being disparaging to Pink. I think you are incredibly
dedicated to ?ga?. But I am sure happy that time is past me now. Now I
am semi retired I have what may be regarded as regular sleep but I
spend so long on ?ga, that my body clock has shifted from being a
morning person to being an evening person.

I read some time ago, I don?t know where, that a university type study
had been done in which a number of people volunteered to live
separately, for a length of time in rooms which did not either have
daylight or a time measuring device. They could eat, sleep and be
awake whenever they wished. It was concluded that human kind works on
a natural 25 hour cycle, but daylight makes us adjust to 24 hours.
They also extended the experiment to animals and found that many had
longer than 24 hour natural rhythms but some, notably the shrew, had
much shorter natural cycles. This is interesting but I'm not too sure
how relavent it is.

Captain - I don't think you are being disparaging at all toward Pink. 
I am surrounded by very bright young people who claim to need at least
10 hours of sleep.  And, you are right - if you have to, you will live
on whatever semblance of sleep you can get.  I work out daily,
typically an hour of spinning or weight training and my body demands
that I get enough sleep to recover.  Humans are fairly resilient;
however, I still think that the "sleep debt" phenomonon holds weight.

Pink - thanks for the link.  It made me smile and I wondered who among
the people I know are horses and who are field mice. ;o)

Regarding the "you can do it if you have to do it" theory, for ten
years I did have to get by with less sleep than my body requires. I
was a civil servant whose working hours were not flexible, and I had a
part-time job in the evenings.

During this period of my life, I was assailed by multiple autoimmune
illnesses, and I underwent fourteen surgical procedures.

I can't deny that it is possible that my claim that I need ten hours
of sleep per night is mere laziness and that my illnesses were all
psychosomatic. Naturally enough, I prefer to believe otherwise.

Ahhhh . . .Pink!  You have answered a question that I have been
holding in my mind for months, but have been too "cowardly" to ask,
because it appeared presumptuous and "politically incorrect."

My husband's family - mom, dad and sis ALL suffer from auto-immune
disorders and ALL claim (including my husband who has an auto-immune
disorder) that they can easily get by on 4 hours of sleep.  I
personally think it's a macho thing, but they feel that if Margaret
Thatcher can do it . . .yadda, yadda, yadda.  In fact, my
sister-in-law has a crippling case of rheumatoid arthritis and
although she is on methotrexate will not alter her sleep patterns.

I'm not a scientist or researcher, or doctor.  But, 8-10 hours seems
like a "natural" pattern - one that promotes healing, and learning, as
the article you linked mentioned.

I like your description of the anti-sleepers' viewpoint as "a macho
thing." That, in my perception, is exactly on point. The notion that
there is something wussy about sleep, and that it is an act of courage
to repress the body's desire to rest, is quite common these days.

People may look down on me for sleeping more than they think is
virtuous. That's their problem, not mine. Telling me that I could "get
by" on less sleep is, IMHO, like telling Stephen Hawking that he could
walk if he just tried hard enough.

Pink,

I honestly don?t think that I was attempting to be macho in my comment
above. I thought you would have read between the lines and realised
the pleasure was not in the doing, or the retelling. In fact there vas
very little pleasure at all. I just merely stated it as a fact that
happened and that I was able to cope with it for a while. Everybody is
different, perhaps that is what makes people so interesting (no self
machoness intended) and everybody has their own sleep requirements. My
wife at the moment has a spinal problem which requires lots of rest
and better still lots of sleep and often she has a couple of hours
sleep in the afternoon. If for any reason this doesn?t happen,
visitors; looking after grandchildren etc. then she often has a fairly
sleepless night also. Peculiar!

I think that in life in general, and ?ga? in particular, you don?t
necessarily have to have a vastly different point of view in order to
want to discuss something. As so often happens, I believe we are all
beating the same drum from a different point around the edge.

Just so everyone knows, I appreciate the input I've received, although
not comprehensive per se.  Also, I wasn't judging you, Captain,
personally regarding your long days.  My observation had more to do
with my husband's family where a sense of one-upmanship and (IMESHO)
machoness dominate a lot of their life.  Sadly, the consequences have
already wreaked havoc with their health.  There are plenty of people
in the world who do this.  Your situation was entirely different - you
were required by necessity to save your business.

And, at the risk of being biased, I agree with Pink's comment
comparing the sleepers' requirements to Steven Hawkings' being able to
jump out of his wheel chair, and walk, if he really gosh darn would
just snap out of it.  I sleep 8-9 hours, which is reasonable, but am
made to feel like a wimp by my husband's family.  It's a power thing
on their part.  However, I'm healthy.

Just to round this one off (I think), I read your comment correctly,
Purrisan, I thought that Pink was having a mild pop at me for
appearing to be a hero but I did say ?SOME people can do it if they
have to?? I got away with it and it turned out differently for Pink. I
really am sorry for that. I think the only thing it proves, if
anything, is that life isn?t fair but we already knew that. It seems
it?s always the nice people that get the dirty end of the stick. When
you see the macho slapheads around it gives you pleasure to be
considered a wimp and all the rest can go and boil their heads?.

We kicked this one around for a bit, but I agree it was not the
comprehensive answer you were looking for, Purrisan. Just for fun I
did a Google search for ?Torture+sleep+deprivation? really not
expecting very much to come from it and 101,000 references sprang up
at me, too many to provide links here. I am sure there will be
something amongst this, which will answer your question.

Best regards

Norman

Norman,

I shouldn't have sounded so snappish in my response to your remarks
about people being able to do without sleep if the have to do so. It's
a sore spot for me, and I am overly touchy on the issue, which is my
problem, not yours. But, by gum, the next time an acquaintance or a
relative implies that my need for sleep is just sloth, somebody's
gonna get a poke in the snoot. I can always claim I was just
sleepwalking when I did it. ;-)

~Pink

Auggh. In my post above, for "if the have to do so," please read "if
they have to do so."

I need a nap.

Oh, not a problem with any of the answers.  This is an open forum for discussion.

It is interesting that the combination of words for the pain of
sleeplessness delivered so many hits.  However, I'm just wondering
what the long-term effects are of long-term sleep deprivation, other
than what I've noticed anecdotally, in that my in-laws are all
affected by auto-immune disorders, probably unnecessarily so.  I am
always happy for vacation time for my husband and I so that he "makes
up" for his bizarre sleep habits by sleeping 12 hours at a shot.
I've never seen sleeping as laziness - the concept of which, I
believe, is a product of what John Bradshaw would have called the
legacy of patriarchy.  Or a Puritan hangover . . .

Long ago, I recall reading about a sleep deprivation study which used
college students as subjects. The study was called off because many of
the students began to display signs of mental illness. Would you like
me to see whether I can track down this study, if it exists?

Here's an interesting paper about sleep deprivation:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web3/Ledoux.html

Yes, thank you, Pink.  I would love to learn whatever I can and, I
tell you, insanity is not far from where my husband is sometimes if he
goes without adequate sleep. ;o))

I haven't been able to find anything online about the study I
mentioned. Now that I think of it, I believe the study was not about
sleep deprivation per se, but dream deprivation. I seem to recall that
they woke the students up as soon as there were signs of REM sleep,
preventing them from dreaming. After a few days, the students
exhibited bizarre behavior and had hallicinations, so the study was
discontinued.

I believe I read about this in an issue of "Psychology Today" in the 1970s.

Yes, I heard about that experiment too, in the dim and distant past
but ?Psychology Today? isn?t something I regularly subscribe to, maybe
it was on one of the talk radio stations.

Like you, I have no specialised medical knowledge but I think that
?sleep? is about biology and laziness is about motivation, two vastly
different things.

Purrsian, did you try the ?torture? reference above, I think you will
be very surprised.

Regards

Norman

Blood glucose and sleep?  I don't know about the other diabetics out
there but I can sleep at the mere suggestion of it.

Time to go stick my finger again - sigh.  I do have my glucose meter
leash trained though.

Cheers
Digs

Yes, thank you, Captain.  I'm pleased that you made a distinction
between sleep and laziness.  Two vastly different phenonmena.  But, as
I've discovered over the years, old fashioned philosophies die hard. 
Ignorance is still quite pervasive.

Pink, I've checked the additional links embedded in the URL you gave
me and there is a wealth of information there that I honestly had a
hard time finding on my own.  Thank you.  I'm printing the articles
that are still active.

As far as blood sugar is concerned, it was something that I heard once
on a broadcast radio program on health that I listen to once a week. 
Other that what I heard, I can't really support the comment.

Pink,

I realise that this is a subject close to your heart and that you have
put a lot of effort into it. If Purrsian is happy with the link and
URL?s you provided, why don?t you ask her if you can post this as the
official answer. I suspect she will agree.

Regards

Norman

Here's an interesting paper about sleep and fatigue. It is
specifically concerned with pilots, but there's a lot of info here:

"Standard Sleep Requirements and Off-Duty Period

There is a generally consistent body of research which demonstrates
that most people require an average of 8 hours of sleep per night to
achieve normal levels of alertness throughout daytime hours without
drowsiness and to avoid the buildup of sleep debt (Carskadon & Dement,
1982; Wehr et al., 1993). This figure is based upon a range of studies
that used several approaches, including:
? Historical levels of sleep
? Measures of daytime alertness
? Sleep levels achieved when given the opportunity to sleep as long as desired.
Webb and Agnew (1975) reported that habitual sleep around the turn of
the century was about nine hours. A 1960 study of more than 800,000
Americans found that 13 percent of men and 15 percent of women, ages
35-65, slept less the seven hours with 48 percent of both obtaining
less than eight hours of sleep per night (Wake Up America, 1993). By
1977, one in eight Americans reported getting six or fewer hours of
sleep per night (Schoenborn & Danchik, 1980). By 1983, just six years
later, that number had jumped to one in four (Schoenborn & Cohen,
1986).

The average distribution of habitual sleep ranges between 5.5 and 9.5
hours per night, and includes 95 percent of the adult population with
an average of 7.5 hours (Horne, 1988). Most researchers seem to agree
with this figure (Levine et al., 1988; Carskadon & Roth, 1991, Dinges
et al., 1996; Bonnet & Arand, 1995). However, Webb (1985) reported
considerable individual differences in habitual sleep in a sample of
more than 30,000 individuals from 11 industrial countries. In this
study two percent were reported to sleep less than five hours per
night, while five percent reported sleeping more than 10 hours. These
averages have been reported in similar findings across various
population groups.

Most researchers advocate an average sleep requirement for adults of
7.5 to 8.0 hours per day (Levine et al., 1988; Carskadon, & Roth,
1991; Dinges et al., 1996). Although early on, Dement et al. (1986)
indicated that 9 hours was necessary for optimal alertness throughout
the day, Horne considered 6 hours 'core sleep' sufficient. Although
Horne?s advocacy of 6 hours core sleep has detracted somewhat from
what most sleep researchers now feel to be optimal sleep, it has not
dislodged the weight of evidence.

Carskadon (1991) reports that 87 percent of college students
habitually sleeping seven to 7.5 hours per night had difficulty
staying awake in the afternoon with 60 percent reporting actually
falling asleep. When compared with Horne?s advocating only 6 hours of
'core sleep,' these responses seem to suggest that, although the
subjects specify a habitual amount of sleep above Horne?s putative
?core,? their sleep is insufficient. The six-hour core amount does not
seem to apply to many, based upon the self-perceived adequacy of
sleep.

Roehrs et al. (1989) showed that when short or long sleepers were
required to stay in bed for ten hours, all subjects slept about an
hour longer than usual. The result was that all subjects improved in
their alertness, vigilance, and reaction time needed for driving or
monitoring modern control panels.

Divided attention performance showed significant improvement, and
central task performance showed somewhat better improvement than
peripheral task performance. Daytime sleepiness decreased for both
groups, but to a greater extent for the individuals who previously
reported suffering from sleepiness. Subjects who were usually sleepy
were more alert, and those who usually functioned at a high level
became even sharper (Carskadon et al., 1979)."

http://www.unionepiloti.it/diparti/tecnico/Documenti_dt/Studio_Battelle.pdf

There's more. It's a very good read.

I've been following this thread for quite some time, very interesting.
 I have a circadian clock disorder, and have very strange sleep
habits.  I went searching and came up with this interesting piece:

The Biological Imperative: Human Sleep Need and the Circadian Clock 

Scroll down to:

Human Sleep Requirements 
http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/zteam/PDF_pubs/RAeS_97.pdf

Thought I'd pass it along..

~~Cynthia

Pink & Cynthia,

The resources you provided are very interesting - I'll have to spend
more time re-reading them.  However, the weight of scientific evidence
seems to support the necessity of at least 7 hours of sleep.  In my
personal experience, the amount of time that I need to sleep varies
with how much fatigue I accumulate during the day - e.g., very
strenuous exercise sessions places a burden on my bod to effectively
recover (I suppose it could be called the "training effect.")

Also, I am a great fan of William Dement who has a sleep research lab
at Stanford University.  In a tape that I have of his, he mentions
that afternoon sleepiness, say after a meal or during a meeting, is
usually reflective not of the digestive process creating a drain, or
of the meeting being boring, but both give the body an opportunity to
relax enough to allow the sleep debt to manifest.

I personally notice that my husband's moods are significantly affected
by lack of sleep.  Moods, perceptions, reaction time, (in)ability to
complete projects, seem to be related to shortened sleep cycles.

Its 2;24am and since I nap for 3hrs a day, here I am. Quite excited
after finding ga! I studied chinese health sites after my chinese
therapists said sleep before midnight was very important... The liver
and kidneys rejuvenate at these times. According to chinese theology,
the various organs have specific times when they rebuild, much like
sleep letting the brain process events, and heal the body. I'm a big
believer in the old ways and sayings like: early to bed, early to
rise, makes a man healthy wealthy and wise. PS do as I say, not as I
do.....Goodnight F

Hi, Siz,

Thanks for the comments.  Not only are the Chinese wise in their
intuitive grasp of healing, but I've even recently read that according
to Western scientific observations, the adrenal glands are actively
renewing/recycling at around 11:00 p.m.  I've not done a Google search
to verify this (whether that is a good place to start is still a big
question mark in my mind).  But, it sounds reasonable.  My experience
is that since beginning a rigorous exercise routine, my body just went
into automatic pilot when it comes to my appetite and sleep
requirements.  I believe that exercise "normalizes" our bodies, but
maybe it's just how it affects me.

Purrsian,

After all the hours I've put in, I'd love to be able to post an answer
for you eventually, but I don't have a clear idea of what is lacking.
At this point, what would constitute a satisfactory answer?

~Pink

Actually, Pink, the links that you provided I've found to be quite
adequate - even edifying!  The ultimate answer may not be
"scientifically" verified for a while, or, maybe, someday sleep will
have a different cultural context . . .

But, yes, you have answered my question - it's also gratifying to know
that there are folks who have the same need for sleep that I do. 
Thanks for your efforts.