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Subject:
Newton's Third Law
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: jgrow-ga List Price: $2.00 |
Posted:
02 Aug 2005 07:06 PDT
Expires: 01 Sep 2005 07:06 PDT Question ID: 550780 |
At least two forces are acting on me right now while I am sitting in a chair. What are these forces? On what is the equal and opposite force to each of these acting? (Newton's Third Law) |
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Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 22 Aug 2005 16:26 PDT |
The three laws and the law of gravity, taken together, were a prescription for calculation the motion of planets as described by Kepler laws: http://home.cvc.org/science/kepler.htm When people, teachers and popularisators, attempt to describe such 'recepies for calculation' aka algorithms (see http://www.answers.com/algorithm&r=67 ) in common (non-mathematical) language, they invariably generate meanigless confusing verbiage. Third law is a prime example of this phenomenon. There are only two ways which make sense: 1) Learn to calculate it (requires calculus) 2) just say 'there is some math, which allows [some] people to predict the orbits of planets' Anything else, including the posted comments, is waste of the bandwith. Hedgie |
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Re: Newton's Third Law
From: brain_child-ga on 02 Aug 2005 08:40 PDT |
The gravity exerts a force down upon you which pushes your butt into the chair. In exchange, the chair exerts an equal and opposite force upward onto your butt so there is no net acceleration. For some examples see: http://dosxx.colorado.edu/~bagenal/1010/SESSIONS/7.UniversalMotions.html Note there is a subtlety here. You may ask, how can the chair exert a force up? It doens't do anything? Well this question raises to points. First, the chair need not exert a force up. If it was made of jello, your butt would fall straight through the floor. It is the chair's rigidity, which on the microscopic scale is characterized by electromagentic interactoins between atoms, that force you up. This lastly raises the question, how does the floor hold the chair up? For there is an equal and opposite reaction there as well. Well the floor is rigid, as is the earth, and if you keep asking this question you essentially enlarge your definition of the system you are asking about. In the system that contains the entire earth and you as too seperate bodies, the problem is described differently in terms of Newton's law of gravitatoin. You are gravitationaly attracted to the earth just as much as the earth is attracted to you. Thus they exert equal and opposite forces See: http://dosxx.colorado.edu/~bagenal/1010/SESSIONS/8.Gravity.html Enjoy! |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: qed100-ga on 04 Aug 2005 00:27 PDT |
Let's simplify this by eliminating the chair. It's really superfluous. Picture just you standing firmly upon Earth's surface. Newtons laws say that given an interaction between two bodies, A & B, the force by A upon B equals that by B upon A. The most obvious force between you & Earth is gravity. You & Earth's centers of mass accelerate towards each other, tending to converge. That's the first force. But, interestingly, as your feet become pressed upon terre firma, the two mass centers stop actually getting closer to each other at some finite distance. Something is interfering with gravitation. The force of gravity is pulling you & Earth together, but at some point there's another force, in the exact opposite direction, pushing you both apart with an acceleration of equal magnitude to that of gravity. This force must aquire its strength over a very, very short distance, since your feet come apparently into contact with Earth before bringing your gravitational motion to a grinding halt. That force is the electrostatic force between negatively charged electrons exposed at both Earth's surface and yours. But- it's experimentally showable that the electrical force between charges is trillions of times greater per unit of mass than is true for gravity. So why then does the electrical repulsion only beome strong enough to counter gravity just as your feet come into contact with the ground? It is because the electrons are only part of the electrical composition of gross bodies of matter. Such a body is actually a very large number of chemical atoms, each of which has both negatively charged electrons and, usually, an equal number of positively charged protons. An atom is extremely small, and so the distance between the electrons & protons is also small. At any distance much larger than the radius of an atom, the acceleration induced by the electrons is very nearly balanced by that of the protons. For objects as extremely large as you and Earth, the electrical forces between you is effectively zero. But as your feet approach Earth, the surface atoms get close, and at some very close range, the outer electrons finally are significantly closer to each other than they are to the protons within the electrons' orbital shells. At this point the electronic repulsion accumulates very rapidly with decreasing distance and the accelerations equal that by gravity, balancing you upon a gravitational/electric cushion. |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: smokeybob-ga on 13 Aug 2005 00:03 PDT |
I think that the two comments originally stated under this question delve into too much physics to answer this question. Lets go as basic as we can get. When you stand outside and pick up a rock and let it fall, you move it from a state of having no velocity, to having velocity. In doing this you accelerate the rock (changing the velocity or direction of a moving object is definted as acceleration). Now, anything that rises must fall, and so a still object lifted above the ground is at velocity 0. When it starts falling it is accelerated towards the earth (it's velocity increases) and it hits the ground. The First Force On Earth, any object is being accelerated no matter whether it is moving, or sitting on the ground. The Earth's gravity is always trying to accelerate us towards the center of the earth. This, is the first force that is acting on you. Gravity is holding your feet to the ground. Now any object on the Earth will be accelerated towards the center of the Earth, at 9.8m/s^2 Governed by the law F=ma, If an object has mass, and is being accelerated, there is a force acting on it. That force (as stated above) is gravity. The Second Force In order to move an object from rest, a force needs to be applied to it. If a force is being applied to an object, that mass must be accelerating. (F=ma). As stated above, gravity is a force that is pulling is down towards the center of the Earth, but i'm not accelerating into the Earth? The second force is what is sometimes referred to as the Normal force. But, in effect, this force is what keeps you from accelerating into the earth. This "Normal" force is what keeps us standing on the ground. It is caused by the surface of which you are standing (or sitting) on. Both of these forces balance out (unless the chair you're sitting on happens to break under the force of gravity!) to keep you sitting still in your chair. |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: sargedawg-ga on 18 Aug 2005 11:46 PDT |
Newton's Third Law A force is a push or a pull upon an object which results from its interaction with another object. Forces result from interactions! some forces result from contact interactions (normal, frictional, tensional, and applied forces are examples of contact forces) and other forces are the result of action-at-a-distance interactions (gravitational, electrical, and magnetic forces). According to Newton, whenever objects A and B interact with each other, they exert forces upon each other. When you sit in your chair, your body exerts a downward force on the chair and the chair exerts an upward force on your body. There are two forces resulting from this interaction - a force on the chair and a force on your body. These two forces are called action and reaction forces and are the subject of Newton's third law of motion. Formally stated, Newton's third law is: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." The statement means that in every interaction, there is a pair of forces acting on the two interacting objects. The size of the forces on the first object equals the size of the force on the second object. The direction of the force on the first object is opposite to the direction of the force on the second object. Forces always come in pairs - equal and opposite action-reaction force pairs. A variety of action-reaction force pairs are evident in nature. Consider the propulsion of a fish through the water. A fish uses its fins to push water backwards. But a push on the water will only serve to accelerate the water. In turn, the water reacts by pushing the fish forwards, propelling the fish through the water. The size of the force on the water equals the size of the force on the fish; the direction of the force on the water (backwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the fish (forwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction force. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for fish to swim. Consider the flying motion of birds. A bird flies by use of its wings. The wings of a bird push air downwards. In turn, the air reacts by pushing the bird upwards. The size of the force on the air equals the size of the force on the bird; the direction of the force on the air (downwards) is opposite the direction of the force on the bird (upwards). For every action, there is an equal (in size) and opposite (in direction) reaction. Action-reaction force pairs make it possible for birds to fly. I hope you understand this as you would want! Sarge |
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Re: Newton's Third Law
From: skew-ga on 29 Aug 2005 12:36 PDT |
I recommend this book: "The New Science of Strong Materials or Why You Don't Fall Through the Floor" by J E Gordon (Pelican Books, Second Edition 1976). Gordon says: "If I weigh 200 pounds and stand on the floor, then the soles of my feet push downwards with a push or thrust of 200 pounds (or 900 Newtons, if you must); that is the business of feet. At the same time the floor must push upwards on my feet with a thrust of 200 pounds (or 900 Newtons; that is the business of floors." He goes on: "All this is merely a statement of Newton's third law of motion which says, roughly speaking, that if the status quo is to be maintained then all the forces on an object must cancel each other out. This law does not say anything about how these forces are generated." And again: "There is no such thing as a truly rigid material. Everything 'gives' to some extent. . . . It is probably obvious by this time that these deflections, be they large or small, generate the forces of resistance which make a solid hard and stiff and resistant to external loads. In other words, a solid deflects exactly far enough to build up forces which just counter the external load applied to it." |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: physdoc-ga on 23 Sep 2005 12:01 PDT |
I can see serious misunderstandings in many of the postings here. Even the official Answer is rather unhelpful and shows little understanding of physics, I'm afraid to say. Rather than point out their many mistakes, let me give a straightforward answer to a straightforward question. (a) "At least two forces are acting on me right now while I am sitting in a chair. What are these forces?" The two forces acting on me are (i) the force of gravity that the Earth exerts on me (otherwise known as my weight), which acts downwards (ii) the contact force that the chair exerts on me, which acts upwards (this force is ultimately electromagnetic in origin). (b) "On what is the equal and opposite force to each of these acting? (Newton's Third Law)" Newton's third law states that if body A exerts a force on body B, then body B also exerts a force on body A which is equal in magnitude but opposite in direction. Notes: (i) the action-reaction pair of forces act on DIFFERENT objects (ii) hence, there is no question of them causing equilibrium of any particular object. Going back to the question and applying this law tells us that (i) the reaction force to my weight is the gravitational force I exert on the Earth, which is exactly equal to my weight but directed upwards, and acting ON THE EARTH (ii) the reaction force to the contact force that the chair exerts on me is the contact force that I exert on the chair, which is of the same magnitude but directed downwards. I hope this makes things clear. |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: racecar-ga on 26 Sep 2005 15:42 PDT |
Nicely put, physdoc. |
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Re: Newton's Third Law - two views of
From: hedgie-ga on 06 Oct 2005 09:44 PDT |
Number of comments to such a simple question shows that quite a few people left high school, puzzled by this mysterious statment - the 3rd law. Researchers are not paid to argue with the comments, and I have no intention to enter a dispute. Neverthless, considering the number of comments, and level of general confusion, I will add this one clarification: Firstly, what quite a few comments say: " That force is the electrostatic force between negatively charged electrons exposed at both Earth's surface and yours..." is probably true, but irrelevant to the question. That explanation is an answer to a question: 'what is a molecular basis of elasticity?' and has nothing to do with meaning of the third law. What phys-doc asserts : -----------------\\ From: physdoc-ga on 23 Sep 2005 12:01 PDT "I can see serious misunderstandings in many of the postings here. Even the official Answer is rather unhelpful and shows little understanding of physics, I'm afraid to say..." ---------------// is worse then irrelevant - it is misleading. The modern formulation of the 3rd law is: Sum of all forces acting on a body is zero. That includes static forces, which depend on position vector R and dynamic forces, friction which depends on velocity V= d/dt R and inertia which is M * A where A, the acceleration is change of velocity A= d/dt V. When only static forces are considered, then 'sum of forces =zero' means equilibrium was reached. When dynamic forces are included, that statement represents Equation of Motion. It is a differential equation, which when 'solved', provides trajectory of that body. That what Newton did in Principia. He included inertia and force of gravity R * M1 * M2 / |R| ^3. He solved that equation and obtained Kepler's Laws. This is the use and meaning of the third law, which I described in my 'official' answer. There is another use, practiced in some high schools, which do not have qualified science teachers. That use, sometimes called 'solerian physics', is to confuse students by having them to memorise meanigless dogma and so convince them that physics and science in general is complex and hard to understand. The physdoc and apparently racecar may prefer that branch of explanation. Some people in that branch get further confused by this 'zero sum' of the forces (equal and opposite) and ask: of total of forces is zero, how come it is moving? The right answer, or at least the answer given in Principia, is: The included dynamical force is describing how it is moving. The solerian answer is: These forces are acting on different bodies. I did not included solerian explanation since this was a $2 question and that pseudo explanation is of minor interest. More complete description of solerian physics, it's history and possible usefulness, would require at least $50 question focused on this specific science folklor. Hedgie |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: rracecarr-ga on 06 Oct 2005 13:14 PDT |
Hmmm.... I do not see anything pseudoscientific about Newton's third law, in the form of: to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If you are anywhere on the surface of the earth, there is a gravitational force between you and the earth. The earth pulls on you, and (equal and opposite) you pull on the earth. If you are sitting in a chair, your butt exerts a force on the seat, and (equal and opposite) the seat exerts a force on your butt. True, this alone does not allow you to calculate how things move, but it is not meaningless either. It is not impossible to imagine that forces could be 'one-way'. In fact, many people don't realize that they exert on the earth a gravitational force equal to their weight, and that in priciple if they jump up in the air, until they land the earth accelerates (very slightly) upward under the influence of that force. One of the ways in which the third law can be useful is in drawing force diagrams for multi-body systems. A common type high school mechanics problem involves pulling a block along a table top with a constant force while a second block rests on top of the first block, with friction. The third law tells you that the forward frictional force the bottom block exerts on the top one (the force that causes the top block to accelerate) implies a backward frictional force of equal magnitude exerted by the top block on the bottom one. It is true that without F=ma (2nd Law), the 3rd Law is not very powerful. But to my mind that does not make it meaningless, and I don't think that teaching the 3rd Law makes physics complex or hard to understand. I disagree with the statement: The modern formulation of the 3rd law is: Sum of all forces acting on a body is zero. I understand that the idea behind this claim is to regard inertia as a force. However, I think that makes 'sum of all forces = 0' more of an incomplete statement of the 2nd Law than anything to do with the 3rd Law. In fact, that definition invalidates the 3rd Law, because the 'force' of inertia is not applied by an external agent, and so it has no equal and opposite counterpart. In any case, my personal opinion is that whatever name you give to the statement above, it's a confusing way to put things. It seems more intuitive to me to say that when the sum of the forces is zero, there is no acceleration, and when the sum of the forces is NOT zero, there is acceleration. I suppose in the end this is all more a question of philosophy than physics, and for that reason there is no definitive correct answer. On the other hand, I think the answer given by physdoc is pretty clearly the one jgrow-ga was after. |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: physdoc-ga on 06 Oct 2005 19:25 PDT |
Responding to my earlier posting, Hedgie makes a series of statements which only show how confused he is about basic Newtonian mechanics. It is not my intention to enter into disputes either. However, he is making assertions that are completely wrong. Racecar has already answered some of these and I don't have time to dwell on this. So let me just add some quick remarks. (1) Hedgie asserts that "The modern formulation of the 3rd law is: Sum of all forces acting on a body is zero." This is wrong. No physicist will agree with this. Firstly, it is not a statement of Newton's third law (NIII). Secondly, it is does not even make physical sense. Why should the sum of all forces on a body necessarily be zero? (2) To support his assertion in (1) Hedgie includes "inertia", which he equates to M*A, as a force. This is a misuse of Newton's second law (NII). NII states that the *resultant* force F acting on a body produces acceleration A according to F=M*A. This does not mean that there is a separate force M*A. It is merely the vector sum of the forces acting on the body. As racecar has already pointed out, the fallacy here is a wrong interpretation of NII. Moreover racecar correctly observes that this misinterpretation contradicts NIII. (3) The rest of Hedgie's assertions are too obscure to make any sense, and it quickly becomes apparent that he has run out of arguments. He makes reference to the Principia but doesn't give any supporting quotes, which is a pity. In summary, he has got it all terribly wrong. |
Subject:
Re: Newton's Third Law
From: hedgie-ga on 07 Oct 2005 08:11 PDT |
Quite a bit was written about concept of force in Principia and in modern physics. Interested person can find more in: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/019852675X/qid=1128696849/sr=8-3/ref=pd_bbs_3/102-2693043-5675335?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 Max Jammer in particular: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/048640689X/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-2693043-5675335#reader-link and http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/048640689X/ref=pd_sim_b_5/102-2693043-5675335?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance is excellent historian of science. .. and they all agree M*A , force of inertia is a force. |
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Re: Newton's Third Law
From: physdoc-ga on 08 Oct 2005 18:30 PDT |
Hedgie writes: "Quite a bit was written about concept of force in Principia and in modern physics. .. and they all agree M*A , force of inertia is a force."" I don't have these books to hand. Could you give us some quotes from these sources in support of the statements you make? Thanks. |
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