There is some information on the price of this toy car, but I cannot
find anything on where to purchase the model.  Japanese Daido Metal is
the supposed inventor of the fuel cell car, and I was wondering where
and when (if not available now) I could purchase one, if it is indeed
authentic.

---

Request for Question Clarification by denco-ga on 21 Apr 2006 11:00 PDT

Howdy terryg003-ga,

Even though I have found references going back 3-4 years for the model car,
I do not find it a good sign that even Daido's website does not appear to
make any mention of it.
http://www.daidometal.co.jp/english/

I have very little doubt that Daido could indeed make such a model, as it
appears they have the technology, or licenses to the technology, that would
allow them to do so.  Unfortunately. as so often happens with such things,
I would not bet on it coming to fruition, and if so, being readily available
in the U.S.

Here are two photos of a toy car that was reported to be retrofitted by
Daido with a hydrogen fuel cell.
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/JSPS/JSPS-Pages/Image117.html
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/JSPS/JSPS-Pages/Image118.html

You have no doubt seen this I4U News report on the Daido toy car.
http://www.i4u.com/article1266.html

"The Fuel Cell Toy Car will sell for 20,000yen."

20,000 Yen is currently around US$170.

You might be better off contacting Daido directly.

"DAIDO METAL" Inquiries web page.
http://www.daidometal.co.jp/english/inquiries/index.html

Rather than look any further, Thames & Kosmos makes a fuel cell kit that
one can buy right now.
http://www.thamesandkosmos.com/products/fc/fc2.html

"The Thames & Kosmos Fuel Cell Car & Experiment Kit provides a playful
introduction to one of the most significant technologies of the early
21st Century. With this kit you can build a model car that actually runs
on water!"

"Fuel Cell Car Kit - FREE SHIPPING"
http://www.discoverthis.com/fuelcelcaran.html

"Award winning fuel cell kit! Build your own hydrogen fuel cell with this
kit. Assemble and Experiment with a Unique Reversible Fuel Cell Kit."

The above runs $119.95 with the noted free shipping.

If the above will do as an answer for your question, please tell me and I
will post it as such.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

---

Clarification of Question by terryg003-ga on 21 Apr 2006 11:41 PDT

http://www.i4u.com/article1266.html

is the link to the car I was refering about, although it seems to have
used the same technology as the one you provided pictures of from the
uk site.  The link above says that information is available on Nikkei
Net, which i temporarly subscribed to and found no such information. 
I have tried contanting Daido metal by phone with not much success,
although I will be trying again shortly.  I am not specifically
interested in another type of car kit, but specifically Daido's toy
car that runs on a supposed water-powered hydrogen-like fuel cell and
finding out either how I can obtain one and if I can found out how the
'vehicle' works.  I was suspicious not of Daido Metal's ability to
make the car, but that the use of water for hydrogen did not violate
the first law of thermodynamics...if you cannot find such information
the above that you provided will suffice as an answer to the quesiton,
although I would like more information, if it is not available to the
public I can see how that can be a problem.  If there are patent
numbers for the technology used to make the car that would be helpful.
 Thank you so much denco-ga!

---

Request for Question Clarification by denco-ga on 21 Apr 2006 13:45 PDT

Howdy terryg003-ga,

Herer are some hints on the fuel cell technology that Daido might be
using in this fuel cell toy car.

"Annular Feed Air Breathing Fuel Cell Stack"
http://www.llnl.gov/ipac/news/specialreports/FY2004DOETechTransferAnnualReport.pdf

"Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) staff executed a Non-exclusive
License Agreement with the Japanese company Daido Metal Co., Ltd., a
bearing manufacturer. The company has also developed a fuel cell for
cellular phones and is currently marketing lighting fixtures and toy
cars powered by fuel cells. The company is also working with Honda
Motor on the development of capacitors as a supple mentary power
source for fuel cell automobiles. The license with LANL covers U.S.
patent rights to a portion of its fuel cell portfolio entitled
?Annular Feed Air Breathing Fuel Cell Stack.? LANL scientists
developed the unique, cylindrical fuel cell design that is ideal for
low- voltage, low power applications such as flashlights, laptop
computers, remote-controlled toys and radios."

A United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) search on "Annular
Feed Air" produces the following patents.
http://www.uspto.gov/

1 6,423,437  Passive air breathing fuel cells
2 5,753,383  Hybrid self-contained heating and electrical power supply
process incorporating a hydrogen fuel cell, a thermoelectric generator
and a catalytic burner
3 5,595,834  Annular feed air breathing fuel cell stack
4 5,514,486  Annular feed air breathing fuel cell stack
5 4,955,349  Device for preparation of a fuel-air mixture for internal
combustion engines

ALthough not Daido, and it might not be the same technology that
Daido uses for their toy car, this might be of interest.
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=1569

"Portable Fuel Cell Battery for Wireless Phones"

I have found a references going back to 2000 that mentions Daido
doing work with Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cells.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/animation.html

"This animation shows the process that goes on inside an individual
fuel cell. The red Hs represent hydrogen molecules (H2) from a
hydrogen storage tank. The orange H+ represents a hydrogen ion after
its electron is removed. The yellow e- represents an electron moving
through a circuit to do work (like lighting a light bulb or powering
a car). The green Os represent an oxygen molecule (O2) from the air,
and the blue drops at the end are for pure water- the only byproduct
of hydrogen power."

"FuelCellWorks-Inside the Industry News Letters ... 2006"
http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/article_default_view.fcm?articleid=11986&subsite=6942

"Patents ... Split cell type fuel cell stack ? Daido Metal Company Ltd."

This document links Daido with DCH Technology.
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~jmfent/USFCC-Portable-Power-Market-Study.pdf

"... In September, 2001, DCH Technology announced that Daido Metal Ltd.,
(Nagoya, Japan) DCH?s joint venture partner for the manufacture and sale
of fuel cells in the Asian markets ..."

DCH Technology has a website.
http://www.dcht.com

"The Fuel Cell Shop helps you locate fuel cell products to fit almost any need."

They feature a "Hyco Fuel Cell Car Basic."
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view%3Ditem/cat%3D3/subcat%3D14/product%3D204/action%3Dav/vid%3D18836

"By using a reversible PEM fuel cell, which can work as both an electrolyzer
and a fuel cell, the car is able to produce its own fuel (hydrogen and oxygen
from distilled water) when plugged into a voltage source."

The above "fuel cell car" resembles the "Thames & Kosmos" car.

They also have other products for sell, including fuel cells.
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=SiteMap2/category_id=2

As both the "Thames & Kosmos" and the "DCH Technology" models use an
electrolysis process to extract hydrogen and oxygen to use in their
power cells, I do not see any thermodynamic problems.  The Daido model
no doubt uses the same process.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

---

Request for Question Clarification by denco-ga on 21 Apr 2006 13:47 PDT

Please also note that I4U News article states the following.
http://www.i4u.com/article1266.html

"The Daido Metal toy car is using hydrogen created from the electrolysis of
pure water."

---

Clarification of Question by terryg003-ga on 28 Apr 2006 09:24 PDT

thanks for answering my question.  sorry it took so long for me to
respond, exam week.  The PEM fuel cell using electrolsis to split to
water?  if you were use electrolsis on pure water, then use the
hydrogen in a PEM fuel cell, you would be creating just enough energy
to revert back and perform the electrolsis on the water at perfect
efficiency?!  that is what i am confused about but that is a seperate
question.  thanks so much denco-ga.  doh put this in the wrong section.

Howdy terryg003-ga,

Appreciate you accepting this as the answer for your question, and I hope
your exams went well.

Even though I have found references going back 3-4 years for the model car,
I do not find it a good sign that even Daido's website does not appear to
make any mention of it.
http://www.daidometal.co.jp/english/

I have very little doubt that Daido could indeed make such a model, as it
appears they have the technology, or licenses to the technology, that would
allow them to do so.  Unfortunately. as so often happens with such things,
I would not bet on it coming to fruition, and if so, being readily available
in the U.S.

Here are two photos of a toy car that was reported to be retrofitted by
Daido with a hydrogen fuel cell.
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/JSPS/JSPS-Pages/Image117.html
http://www.msm.cam.ac.uk/phasetrans/2003/JSPS/JSPS-Pages/Image118.html

You have no doubt seen this I4U News report on the Daido toy car.
http://www.i4u.com/article1266.html

"The Fuel Cell Toy Car will sell for 20,000yen."

20,000 Yen is currently around US$170.

You might be better off contacting Daido directly.

"DAIDO METAL" Inquiries web page.
http://www.daidometal.co.jp/english/inquiries/index.html

Rather than look any further, Thames & Kosmos makes a fuel cell kit that
one can buy right now.
http://www.thamesandkosmos.com/products/fc/fc2.html

"The Thames & Kosmos Fuel Cell Car & Experiment Kit provides a playful
introduction to one of the most significant technologies of the early
21st Century. With this kit you can build a model car that actually runs
on water!"

"Fuel Cell Car Kit - FREE SHIPPING"
http://www.discoverthis.com/fuelcelcaran.html

"Award winning fuel cell kit! Build your own hydrogen fuel cell with this
kit. Assemble and Experiment with a Unique Reversible Fuel Cell Kit."

The above runs $119.95 with the noted free shipping.

Herer are some hints on the fuel cell technology that Daido might be
using in this fuel cell toy car.

"Annular Feed Air Breathing Fuel Cell Stack"
http://www.llnl.gov/ipac/news/specialreports/FY2004DOETechTransferAnnualReport.pdf

"Los Alamos National Laboratory (LANL) staff executed a Non-exclusive
License Agreement with the Japanese company Daido Metal Co., Ltd., a
bearing manufacturer. The company has also developed a fuel cell for
cellular phones and is currently marketing lighting fixtures and toy
cars powered by fuel cells. The company is also working with Honda
Motor on the development of capacitors as a supple mentary power
source for fuel cell automobiles. The license with LANL covers U.S.
patent rights to a portion of its fuel cell portfolio entitled
'Annular Feed Air Breathing Fuel Cell Stack.' LANL scientists
developed the unique, cylindrical fuel cell design that is ideal for
low- voltage, low power applications such as flashlights, laptop
computers, remote-controlled toys and radios."

A United States Patent and Trademark Office (USPTO) search on "Annular
Feed Air" produces the following patents.
http://www.uspto.gov/

- 6,423,437  Passive air breathing fuel cells
- 5,753,383  Hybrid self-contained heating and electrical power supply
process incorporating a hydrogen fuel cell, a thermoelectric generator
and a catalytic burner
- 5,595,834  Annular feed air breathing fuel cell stack
- 5,514,486  Annular feed air breathing fuel cell stack
- 4,955,349  Device for preparation of a fuel-air mixture for internal
combustion engines

Although not Daido, and it might not be the same technology that
Daido uses for their toy car, this might be of interest.
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=1569

"Portable Fuel Cell Battery for Wireless Phones"

I have found a references going back to 2000 that mentions Daido
doing work with Proton Exchange Membrane (PEM) Fuel Cells.
http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/animation.html

"This animation shows the process that goes on inside an individual
fuel cell. The red Hs represent hydrogen molecules (H2) from a
hydrogen storage tank. The orange H+ represents a hydrogen ion after
its electron is removed. The yellow e- represents an electron moving
through a circuit to do work (like lighting a light bulb or powering
a car). The green Os represent an oxygen molecule (O2) from the air,
and the blue drops at the end are for pure water- the only byproduct
of hydrogen power."

"FuelCellWorks - Inside the Industry News Letters ... 2006"
http://www.fuelcellmarkets.com/article_default_view.fcm?articleid=11986&subsite=6942

"Patents ... Split cell type fuel cell stack ? Daido Metal Company Ltd."

This document links Daido with DCH Technology.
http://www.engr.uconn.edu/~jmfent/USFCC-Portable-Power-Market-Study.pdf

"... In September, 2001, DCH Technology announced that Daido Metal Ltd.,
(Nagoya, Japan) DCH?s joint venture partner for the manufacture and sale
of fuel cells in the Asian markets ..."

DCH Technology has a website.
http://www.dcht.com

"The Fuel Cell Shop helps you locate fuel cell products to fit almost any need."

They feature a "Hyco Fuel Cell Car Basic."
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view%3Ditem/cat%3D3/subcat%3D14/product%3D204/action%3Dav/vid%3D18836

"By using a reversible PEM fuel cell, which can work as both an electrolyzer
and a fuel cell, the car is able to produce its own fuel (hydrogen and oxygen
from distilled water) when plugged into a voltage source."

The above "fuel cell car" resembles the "Thames & Kosmos" car.

They also have other products for sell, including fuel cells.
http://www.fuelcellstore.com/cgi-bin/fuelweb/view=SiteMap2/category_id=2

As both the "Thames & Kosmos" and the "DCH Technology" models use an
electrolysis process to extract hydrogen and oxygen to use in their
power cells, I do not see any thermodynamic problems.  The Daido model
no doubt uses the same process.

From my reading, and for all intents, the electrolytic process is more
or less "perfectly" offset by the reversion process.

As to your concerns about the second law of thermodynamics, perhaps this
page will address those issues.

"Electrolysis of Water"
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/thermo/electrol.html

"By providing energy from a battery, water (H2O) can be dissociated into
the diatomic molecules of hydrogen (H2) and oxygen (O2). This process is
a good example of the the application of the four thermodynamic potentials.
...
Hydrogen Fuel Cell
...
A fuel cell uses a chemical reaction to provide an external voltage, as
does a battery, but differs from a battery in that the fuel is continually
supplied in the form of hydrogen and oxygen gas. It can produce electrical
energy at a higher efficiency than just burning the hydrogen to produce
heat to drive a generator because it is not subject to the thermal
bottleneck from the second law of thermodynamics."

If you need any clarification, please feel free to ask.


Search strategy:  Examined the Daido website.

Google search on: Daido toy OR car
://www.google.com/search?q=Daido+toy+OR+car

Google search on: Daido "fuel cell"
://www.google.com/search?q=Daido+%22fuel+cell%22

Google search on: "fuel cell" model car
://www.google.com/search?q=%22fuel+cell%22+model+car

Google search on: "fuel cell" efficiency electrolysis
://www.google.com/search?q=%22fuel+cell%22+efficiency+electrolysis

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

Question was answered beyond my expectations.  Very dedicated staff over at google.

"pure water" conducts electricity very poorly, so likely a salt is
added if the tap water does not contain sufficient minerals.  Neil

thanks for answering my question.  sorry it took so long for me to
respond, exam week.  The PEM fuel cell using electrolsis to split to
water?  if you were use electrolsis on pure water, then use the
hydrogen in a PEM fuel cell, you would be creating just enough energy
to revert back and perform the electrolsis on the water at perfect
efficiency?!  that is what i am confused about but that is a seperate
question.  thanks so much denco-ga

My pleasure, terryg003-ga, and thanks for the kind words and 5 star rating.

Looking Forward, denco-ga - Google Answers Researcher

I came across this thread and had just found some plans for that
seperator incliding throttle control. I hope I'm not already beating a
dead horse though.
http://www.netmar.com/~maat/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm