It's well known that many famous persons have had unusual sleep habits
(da Vinci, Edison, Churchill).  Recently I read a response to the
legend about da Vinci never sleeping more than 20 minutes at a time in
any 24 hour period.  The responder implied that this probably
explained why da Vinci was 'psychotic' . . . because, the responder said, the
brain needs at least 90 minutes of sleep to go through the necessary
phases to maintain health.

My question is twofold:
a) was da Vinci considered 'psychotic' by some, or was this just
personal prejudice on the responder's part?
b) is it true that everyone needs that 90 minute cycle?  Or does this
vary in the same way that overall need for sleep varies in
individuals?

note: I seem to get by on six hours at night plus two 20 minute
'power' naps during the day; is there any research that indicates this
would have long term deliterious effects?

sleepless near Seattle,
ts

TimeSpacette, 

No answers to your question, but few thoughts: 

- Richard Feynman (in  "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!") describes
an experiment he did on himself while in college, involving sleeping
in breaks (45 minutes awake and 15 minutes sleep, if I remember
correctly). This is very interesting, and his conclusion at the end is
of course to sleep continuously.

- There has been a question here (that hadn't been answered) about
Lyor Cohen's sleeping habits:
 Lyor Cohen working 20 hours a day
<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=223395> 
<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=313987>

it is a reccommendation that you get 7-8hours of sleep a day and some
medical researchers have said that any less or more can be damaging to
your health or increase the risk of death. play it safe and aim 2 get
at least 7 good hours of sleep a day


happy sleeping!!

One who sleeps 5 hours a night and lives to 60 has actually 'lived' as
much as 7-hour sleeper who is 67 or an 8-hour sleeper who is 71.25! 
It has always frustrated me that I had to spend so much of my life
unconscious.  Sleep is good if you are sick, or at risk for sickness. 
And the amount of sleep you get (or don't) affects your quality of
life in various ways.  Ultimately, though, it is up to one to decide
if more sleep is worth it.
      I have experienced a few power naps in my life (never 20
minutes, though) and they are quite amazing.   Every now and then a 1
to 3 hour nap will leave me perfectly well rested without the usual
grogginess of a long sleep.  I always try to figure out how i did it,
but I have never repeated the effect on purpose.
      I suppose for great mind like Di Vinci you have to get as much
out of a day as you can.  He lived to 67 (not bad at all in the 14th
century) and most likely had many more waking, and working, hours than
the 7-hour sleeping minds of the time.

     I would like to see the studies that indicate that less sleep can
be detrimental to one's health.  I will say that stress and
overworking is bad, but for those who choose and prefer to sleep less,
I doubt there is any harm.  My guess is that many of the people in the
survey were sleeping less not by choice but by necessity.  That is
definitely not a good situation.

Fractl

P.S. If you want more hours in the day without sacrificing sleep, try
waking up better.  I find I spend 1-1.5 hours a day lying in bed
either trying to go to sleep or slapping the sprockets outta my alarm
clock.  If changing this habit will prolong my 'life' by a few waking
years, i think i just may.  Although many a valuable idea has been
conjured (and of those many forgotten) in a semi-conscious state.

hi fractl!

I think you're right; there are a lot of factors involved. Personally,
I don't feel particularly guilty about sleeping a lot.  I tend to need
to when I have a need to dream and process through some heavy-duty
emotional or psychological conundrum  . . . I do feel frustrated at
times, though, when I'm trying to get something done in the waking
world and I start nodding off every fourteen hours or so . . .

by the way, ever tried a zen alarm clock?  changed my morning
experience ever since I got one.
Buy a Christmas present for yourself at:  http://www.now-zen.com/

nice to hear from you,

ts

That Zen clock looks really nice (the price is not very zen-ish,
though).  I think I may try to make one myself, though.  Same with the
bamboo fountain!  I like the fractal they use in their logo...THEY'RE
EVERYWHERE!
   I'm the type of person who tends to hate being non-productive.  I
also tend to mope about for hours mumbling about how much time I
wasted sleeping all morning, so I?m a bit of a hypocrite (I mope about
that too).  =P
  Perhaps I just need more Zen in my mornings.  Do you have any tricks
for falling asleep fast?  Or does this rushed life type of thinking
get me kicked out of Zen school?

-Fractl

it is not possible to get kicked out of Zen school !

this is particularly true for those who follow the catechism of the
First Church of Zen Moodism
(tax exempt status pending)

in fact, your aptitude is inversely proportional to the amount of time
you spend flat-lining!

tricks for falling asleep fast?

first, we must define 'asleep' . . .

television seems to be the drug of choice for quickly falling into the
cultural trance.

; )

ts

Ah! Could it be that I have finally found a chance to ask you about Zen Moodism?
When I Googled it all I found were your GA posts and some
Japan-inspired song by Bill Murray (?!)
[http://www.keepmedia.com/pubs/Remix/2004/12/01/665161]

I may come off as quite skeptical and critical of other beliefs (as
seems to be the gist of many of the questions I have talked in) but I
love philosophy.  As I see it a religion?s main purpose is to spread
(through missionaries, promises etc.) while a philosophy is a more
passive form of religion that focuses on the morals of the stories
rather than names, dates and rituals.  Things are rationalized and
explained versus the ?because I said so? mentality I see elsewhere. 
Though my views of Christianity have probably been made clear to you
already, I have nothing but respect for the more passive (usually
eastern) religions and I would love to hear about Zen Moodism.

-Fractl

TS,

I suggest you read the next issue of TIME magazine.  The cover story
is about 'the new science of sleep'.  This article claims that 'back
in the 1980s, a ssurvey of more than 1 million people found that those
who slept more than 7 1/2 hours a night tended to die a little sooner
than their more sleep-deprived counterparts.'
I found more info on the study that produced these statistics (because
I had a bit of trouble beleiving it). 
http://health.ucsd.edu/news/2002/02_08_Kripke.html

I think sxchookm-ga is trying to kill you!

-Fractl

I'm making up for all those 8 hour nights I've had recently...its 3:30
AM and I just woke up!

hi fractl,
Whew!  for a minute there I thought Bill Murray was stealing my
schtick!  Turns out, the author is 'Murphy', not Murray; I also
wondered if I had subconciously picked up some Saturday Night Live
routine from the deeper crevasses of my mind . . . very possible, and
not the first time this would have happened . . .

and . . . I was just going to suggest that Time mag to you!  It was
written like one of those fill-in cover articles the Time/Newsweek has
once in a while, but the fascinating tidbit that I found there was
that dolphins (and whales?) somehow sleep only with one hemisphere of
their brains at a time, they sleep with one eye open, and then shift
over to the other hemisphere . . .  how interesting!

Now there's a skill I would like to develop to save on sleep time . .
.  although it might look sort of funny during staff meetings . . .

Zen Moodism . . . I would pursue this now, but . . . ha! . . . I guess
I'm not in the mood!  That's terrible, isn't it?

although I'm a devout Zen Moodist, I confess, I'm thoroughly
participating in the Judaic-Christian during these holidays, still,
it's part of the beauty of Moodism, you get to work out your inner
chameleon . . . . .

bizzy, bizzy, bizzy . . . .  will stay tuned . . .

ts

I believe the guy from James Bond Die Another Day found a way to go
without sleep.  But he had diamonds in his face, so what does he know?
 He could cut glass with his cheeks, imagine what his pillows would
look like in the morning.

The TIME article only mentions dolphins; though some seals, lizards,
mallard ducks and whales also sleep in this fashion.
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec2000/977272444.Ns.r.html
http://www.npi.ucla.edu/sleepresearch/02_beluga_lyamin/02_beluga_lyamin.pdf

I wouldn?t mind the half brained technique...but perhaps the
hemispheres of dolphins and whales have different uses than ours.  If
humans tried that we would be really creative for a while and really
logical for a while.  It would be just as functional as being bipolar
24/7.  It would be a good idea to go into hemisphere sleep if you're
exercising (nothing involving crosswalks) or doing other basic things.

I understand now how all these whales get beached.  They're asleep at
the wheel.  Makes me want to just let Darwinism take it's course now.

-Fractl

Sorry about that 'Bill Murray' confusion...the name was 'lost in translation'.  :P