From the viewpoint of a fundamentalist Christian and/or those of the
Christian faith in general, what eventually happens to the soul of
someone who has never had and will never have any contact with
Christian doctrine?

You may be interested in the subject of "inclusivism". This article
will provide one person's view on the matter:

Those Who Never Hear The Gospel
'A Defense of Inclusivism'
http://www.a180.net/neverhear.html

tutuzdad-ga

thanks 'zdad, it's a start . . .

by the way, there's a whole two dollars waiting for you at:
http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=434425

ts

Hi TimeSpacette, Hope you dont mind me commenting on your question.
The basic idea of souls was originally derived from the Bible anyway.
The word " Soul" is translated from the Hebrew "ne`phesh" and the
greek "psy-khe`. Bible usage shows the soul to be the complete live
person. Genesis 2;7..and the man came to BE a living soul..
The Bible does not say that man was GIVEN a soul, but that he BECAME a soul.
First Corinthians 15;45.."It is even so written; 'The first man Adam
BECAME a living soul', The last Adam [ Jesus, being perfect] BECAME a
life giving spirit.[ spiritual being]
First Peter 3;20.."In Noah's days ..a few people, that is eight souls,
were carried safely through the water".
Genesis 9;5.."Besides that, your blood of your souls
[lives=ne'phesh]shall I ask back.
Many people think the soul is a separate spiritual part that can exist
apart from the body, and is the bit that 'goes to heaven'. But the
previous scripture indicates the soul has blood. That points to a
living person.
Joshua 11;11.."they went striking every soul [ ne'phesh]
Ezekiel 18;4 ..the soul that is sinning, it itself will die..
IF the soul were a separate part, then upon death, which pays for our
sins, the separate soul would be sinless, and yet the scripture says
the above, the sinning soul will die.
It only makes sense if the soul is the complete living person.
Even if a person dies, God does not regard that as a finality, because
He has the ability to restore that life, just as Jesus, God's son,
demonstrated with Lazarus.[John 11;11, 14-44]
As to religious doctrine, this is a group of traditions and ideas that
man himself has thought up, and if it sounds good, is kept, and most
times is incorporated into styles of worship. By simple study it can
be seen that these doctrines have no basis and many times go directly
against what the Bible actually says. Every person though,because of
free will, does have the right to either believe the Bible or believe
man's ideas.

After reading the article in inclusivism, which was a bit heavy going,
the idea of anyone gaining God's approval, WHEN THEY HAVE NEVER GAINED
ANY KNOWLEDGE of either God himself, or Jesus, or even the Bible, is
very neatly covered by Jesus himself at Matthew 10;23..[Jesus speaking
to his Apostles] you will by no means complete the circuit of the
cities of israel until the son of man arrives".
The circuit refers to reaching the whole world with bible knowledge.
It cannot mean just the cities of Israel, because bible knowledge is
now practically worldwide. However, there may just be isolated pockets
of humanity, maybe in remote China or the jungles of the world, where
Bible knowledge may never reach.
The arrival of the son of man, is Jesus establishing world peace.
That! is still future.
A loving God would never permit anyone to miss future benefits because
their circumstances prevented them from knowing about Him.
As for those who know but disbelieve..Second Timothy 3;1-7.

Here is another perspective:

In John chapter 20, the story of Mary lamenting her Lord's death is
conveyed.  Remember, this is now ~after~ the crucifixion.  In verse
20, Jesus says, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and
your Father; and to my God, and your God."

Query:  where had He been for those three days if He had not yet
ascended to be with God in Heaven?  I Peter 3:18-19 provides the
explanation: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just
for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in
the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison[.]"

Does it make sense that a loving Heavenly Father would send one of His
children to hell simply because that child had never had a chance to
learn of Jesus Christ during mortality?  What of all the people who
lived during, e.g., the Dark Ages and who never had access to a Bible
or Christian missionaries?  Will God condemn them to hell simply
because they, due only to the circumstances of their birth, could not
learn of Jesus?  The Bible teaches that during the three days between
Christ's death and resurrection, Jesus went to spirit prison and
taught those "lost" spirits His message of redemption.

So, while certain Christian faiths teach that those who die without a
knowledge of Jesus are irrevocably consigned to hell, the Bible
teaches of a more compassionate outcome.

I am a Christian, though not a Fundamentalist. However, when Jesus
said (in John 14:6) "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one
comes to the Father, but by m," I simply take that as literally as he
said it. To me he just is the doorway through which everyone passes
from this life to the next, even if some might be surprised to see him
there! In other words, much of the dogmatism that demands one must
belong to this or that church, or subscribe to this or that creed is
just that: dogma - and I don't see it in my Bible nor anyone else's if
it's read literally without the filter of human interpretation. As for
what happens to those who pass through the gate, well I believe what I
choose to believe, and I'm quite content to leave outcomes of other
people's beliefs up to God. I figure he can handle them, and I'm
thankful it's not my job.  :-)

Hi.

I have a series of comments and questions for those involved here:

thank you, tutuzdad, for that very interesting article; the author
seems to be a humble seeker after truth and he wasn't afraid to admit
it when he didn't know something for sure.  It also clarified for me
the various approaches to this questions

hello pugwash, your viewpoint is always an interesting one!  I'm
curious to know how you make a distinction between religious doctrine
("man's ideas") and the Bible?  Isn't the Bible itself religious
doctrine?  Didn't it come through the hands and minds of men?  I
realize that it may have been 'inspired', but by the same token, there
have been many, many inspired (even 'channelled') doctrines  that also
could be conceived of as 'the word of God'.  The Course in Miracles,
which came through a Jewish lady Helen Schucman, was done by what is
known as automatic writing. So, I'm curious how you, a human, can
figure out what is real to you and what is not.

A similar question for ipfan-ga, byrd-ga ". . . certain Christian
faiths teach . .. . . but the Bible teaches of a more compassionate
outcome."  and " if it's read literally without the filter of human
interpretation."

I work in the area of hospice care, attending to people in their dying
process. I've read well-known accounts of many near death experiences
where people have been pronounced clinicly dead and somehow or other
were able to come back to tell of the experience. The general thinking
here tends to be that whoever, or whatever, the individual holds to
have spiritual power in their own minds, that is the form that appears
at the time of death. Even little kids who came back told of meeting
up with personifications of their toy action figures!

Personally, I had a close brush with death as a child. I was raised in
a strongly Christian family, and from a very young age had a very
close personal relationship with who I understood Jesus to be.  Yet I
had a kind of a vision of Ganesha, the Hindu god.

What do you make of that?

ts

Here is Hank Hanegraaff's view on the matter. He is the host of the
radio show Bible Answerman.

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Article.asp?article_id=275


You might also be interested in some of his articles.

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Article_Archives.asp


You can also listen to his radio programs found on this link.

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Archives.asp


Easterangel

Hi again TimsSpacette. There is a big difference between religious
doctrine and the simple statements of the Bible.
For example, doctrine is the use of the word " Trinity", the belief of
three gods in one. The word is not found in the Bible.
In the Hebrew scriptures, Goid said 'you' should not make a carved
image of anything under the sun. The commandment was not modified to
include carvings of Jesus or Mary or anyTHING. even the Muslims
realize and obey that one. Mainline churches are full of images.
Again, doctrine.
Doctrine is STATING that Jesus IS God and Mary is the Mother of
God..Again a doctrine and not a Bible teaching.
As to the main subject, death, the scriptures liken it to sleeping.
Genesis 3;19, Ecclesiastes 9;5,6 & 10. Psalm 146;4, John 11;11-14,
Isaiah 26;14.."They are dead; they will not live. Impotent in death,
they will not rise up".
All these scriptures are in agreement. 
If a person appears to die, for example, on the operating table, then
recovers and survives to tell of what they saw, or thought they saw,
they did not actually die.
In all these discussions, Satan the Devil is conveniently not
mentioned. But it is He who is behind all these apparently
inexplicable occurrences. Second Corinthians 11;14.."And no wonder,
for Satan himself keeps transforming into an angel of light". He can
actually appear to be the good guy. And by causing phenomena to happen
that is directly against Bible teachings, confuses us poor stupid
humans.
If you think you saw Ganesha, I can easily believe you, but it was not
Ganesha, but Satan or one of his demons in that guise.
Even I once thought I saw my grandfather at the foot of my bed, the
night after he was killed by a train. But it was not until I studied
the Bible that my mind was changed from believing in ghosts to
realizing the evil influence that is on the earth. Revelation 12;12.

Hello all,

It seems the common opinion is that one who has never been introduced
to Christianity is still able to enter heaven.  What of those that are
aware of it but choose not to believe.  It is usually the case that
one keeps the religion one was born into.  When one is a child the
foundations of ones religion is embedded in ones mind.  It takes much
effort to combat the social pressure, fear of change, and fear that
you made the wrong choice to convert.  Those born as a Christian seem
to have easy access to heaven by walking a straight path.  Do those
who were not convinced or those who have stronger beliefs?  What about
those that believe in an altered version of Christianity?  If Satan
can disguise himself as a reincarnation of Buddha at my doorstep I?ll
switch to Buddhism in a heartbeat!  Is it my fault for being
convinced?

-Fractl

I have not yet read the article on Inclusivism...If any of my
questions were covered in that I apologise

Hi Fractl, If you believe the Bible and appreciate that it warns about
Satan and his dirty tricks department, just like you described him
appearing like Buddha, you will be aware that it is Satan  or his
demons. And if he looks like Buddha and you are deceived into
believing it is Buddha, you would not be following Biddha, but Satan.
A wolf in sheeps clothing is still a wolf.

What if I know of Christ but am still fuzzy on the bible and Satan and
such.  If I don't follow Christ (of whom I do know) because of Satan
(who I had not known much about) am I still hell-bound?

-Fractl

Easterangel's link (or link from the link he suggested) further
complicates my question:

" . . . . furthermore, the Scriptures --from first to last-- suggest
that animals have souls.  Both Moses in Genesis and John in Revelation
communicate that the Creator endowed animals with souls (see Gen.
1:20, 24; Rev. 8:9).  Throughout the history of the church, the
classic understanding of living things has included the doctrine that
animals, as well as humans, have souls."

(http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Article.asp?article_id=330)

We all assume, I think, that animals do not understand abstract
thought and language. Sure they can carry on communication to a
limited degree, but you know what I mean.  I would dare guess that if
you read the Bible to your cat or dog 'til you were blue in the face,
that your pet would never form an image in it's mind about Jesus or
any of the concepts therein . .. . . .  so how is it that an animal
can get to heaven (as the writer claims)?  Actually, when I posted
this question, I was thinking of humans, but this idea that animals
can go to heaven too makes this question a bit more interesting!

I mean, I would really like to think so, but pugwash, I am still
unclear about how you discern what is real apart from what is unreal

you said "If you believe the Bible and appreciate that it warns about
Satan and his dirty tricks department, just like you described him
appearing like Buddha, you will be aware that it is Satan..."
 . . . how will believing make you able to discern whether it's Satan
or not?  Could it be that Satan could also disguise himself as Jesus? 
Do you see what I'm asking?

ts

Perhaps Jesus never existed at all.  What if 2000 years ago Satan
convinced 12 people that he was born from God?  Perhaps it was God
that punished him to be crucified.  What if the whole Christian
religion was based on a lie and you are all condemned to hell because
you fell for it!  I believe that would qualify you for under the
?false idols? rule.

I don?t think this is true, of course...but if he could appear as
Buddha why not Christ.  If he is as intelligent, charismatic and
devious as he is made out to be I would be shocked if he didn?t
realize the potential to found a religion under Gods name.  Once you
begin to doubt, once you believe that a manipulative force like Satan
exists in this world you begin to realize that nothing is 100% and no
amount of knowledge will allow you to tell right from wrong (how do
you know Satan didn?t give you that knowledge in the 1st place)?

-Fractl

I don?t mean to offend; I just wanted to prove a point.

there's a curious silence here . . .

Someone is most likely writing a book now on how wrong I was...
I would like to hear an opinion though.  I've been starting to get
wrapped up in this hole religious paradox logic (and I blame you for
this, TS) and I am looking for someone who can unravel it all.

-Fractl (or did the devil write this?)

...but got created the devil...
...so god wrote this...
...but I dont think I'm Satan or God...
...God is everywhere, though...so god is the devil...
...but they are mutually exclusive...
...God contradicted his own non-definition again...
AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Someone save me from this craziness!!!!
God and logic can not both exist, one of 'em has to go!

for FRACTL; Satan was initially created as an angel, an obedient
angel. Angels are not robots but have free will. Satan desired the
worship that is God's exclusive right and turned away from God. And
not only Satan but a third of all heavens angels followed Satan. These
became the demons.
Revelation 22;8,9 tells of John wanting to bow down to an angel but
was warned against it. That angels instruction to John was; Worship
God!.
Not even Jesus, but God.
The meaning of Satan's name is slanderer and deceiver.
In the Bible he is referred to as Satan, 52 times, and as Devil, 33 times.
God has actually allowed Satan to try and influence men to prove that
faithful men will use their free will and choose god above Satan. God
allowed Satan to cause Job to lose his health and his wealth and his
whole family, But Satan was not permitted to take his life. Job later
had all these things restored to him.
His family will be resurrected. Job 1; 7-12.
Satan is not able to take the place, or the form of Jesus, because
Jesus is first and foremost a spiritual being, and is the very first
of God's creations.
Jesus existed before even the angels themselves were created, before
even the universe. Gods created son and when sent to earth, His only
begotten son.
As a man, Jesus was even tempted by Satan and offered all the kingdoms
of the world [ uncounted wealth and influence] in exchange for ONE
single act of worship to Satan. If Jesus was beyond or above or even
prevented by God from being able to accept the offer, there would be
no point in Satan even making the offer. But he did, and Jesus could
have accepted. He did not  but remained faithful to God. Matthew 4;
1-11.
You mention Hell. If you accept that when we die. all our sins are
"forgiven" or cancelled, then a loving God would not have a further
place of torture, as most people understand Hell to be. What Hell is ,
is simply our grave. where once we die, there is nothing. Isaiah
26;14.
And Fractl, if you hold the bible in contempt, by simply ignoring it,
then this is exactly what Satan wants. And his best trick is to
convince people that he just does not exist at all, and that evil is
in each of us.
Did Jesus exist? Pontius Pilate, the [pagan god worshipping] Roman
governor of Judea, knew so. Mark 15;44.
And a response to BYRD. If we all go to heaven, through Jesus, when we
die, his thought makes nonsense of the scriptures in psalms 37, about
the wicked being destroyed and the meek possessing the earth. And to
approach God in prayer through Jesus is not to pray through Mary or
any "Saint". Only through Jesus can we hope to approach God.
Apart from the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation who will be kings and
priests with Jesus,  God made the earth for us. And to use it we must
live and breathe.
And every single person who ever lived and never heard of God, or
Jesus, will benefit from the PROMISED resurrection. Hebrews 6;18..It
is impossible for God to lie.

Hi pugwash,

You left me out!  : (

"If you believe the Bible . . . . . .
. . . .  you will be aware that it is Satan..."

Does believing alone give one the awareness to discern the real from the unreal?

ts

Hi again, TimeSpacette. As to your question, No!. Believing by itself
is not enough. Its a bit like the difference between knowing ABOUT
mathematics, and practising or using mathematics. The amount of
learning between the two is tremendous. If a person wishes to be
spiritual, and goes into a place of worship and passively accepts any
information that is given out by the religiou leader, would that
scenario make that person knowledgeable about God and his purposes?. I
don't think so.
God himself had the Bible written for our benefit,[Second Timothy
3;16,17] to enable us to know His plans for us. If we read ALL the
scriptures, and compare them, it can become clear what is required of
us. If we take single scriptures out of context, this can mislead us.
You indicate that you do not believe in the Bible. Fine, you have free
will and it is your choice. But it leaves open the question, Just what
DO you believe in. And where originally, did you derive the
information that you believe in.
Do you know what will happen when you die?. If you have some vague or
specific notion, where did that information come from? Some book or
your own imagination?. It is my belief that God, through his word to
us, the Bible, wants only the best for us and to protect us from
Satan's evil influence. The Book of Job is a prime example of what
Satan regards as fun times . The Bible is full of warning examples. Do
not make carved images of ANYTHING. Do not consult fortune tellers. Do
not inquire of the dead, [ouije boards etc] Love God first, and your
neighbour second. Follow Jesus' examples [N/T][First Peter 2;21].
And finally my reason for some long winded explanations. First Peter
3;15.." But sanctify the Christ in your hearts, ALWAYS READY TO MAKE A
DEFENCE before everyone that demands of you a reason FOR THE HOPE IN
YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect".
.

If Satan is the scapegoat for man's soul, what is God?

for Bridgmohun; If I understand what you are trying to say. That Satan
is an excuse for man's behaviour?. Firstly, the Bible describes Satan
as God's enemy. He is not just an abstract thought but an actual
spiritual entity , totally evil, that has been cast down to the earth,
with catastrophic consequences for us. Revelation 12;7-9, & 12. also
Job 1; 6-12.
The concept of hell as being a place of eternal torment is a
misconception if a mistranslation...of "Sheol".. man's common grave.
our death squares away all the bad things we have ever done, and then
there is nothing until resurrection.
 -

Hi pugwash,

I appreciate your comment: "sanctify the Christ in your hearts, ALWAYS
READY TO MAKE A
DEFENCE before everyone that demands of you a reason FOR THE HOPE IN
YOU, but doing so together with a mild temper and deep respect" . . .
and, actually, in all that I've read on GA that you've written, I have
to say that it's always been interesting to me, and although it may
not be what many want to hear, at least it is written with a mild
temper and deep respect.

Unlike some who call themselves Christians on the one hand, and seem
ready to slay you on the other . . .  (sorry, it seems to be a
particular peeve of mine . . .)

You also said (to me): "You indicate that you do not believe in the
Bible. Fine, you have free will and it is your choice. But it leaves
open the question, just what DO you believe in. And where originally,
did you derive the information that you believe in. Do you know what
will happen when you die?. If you have some vague or specific notion,
where did that information come from? Some book or your own
imagination?"

My response: I'm wondering if YOU know what will happen when you die? 
 There is a difference between believing and knowing. What does anyone
truly *know*? Perhaps you do have a very strong sense of what could be
called personal knowing, based on your own experience and, I would
imagine, your belief in the Bible. If that's true, then I would say
that you will probably prove it all to be correct when you finally
pass from this world, as you do every day of your life.  The open
question that you pose is an important one: but why do we have this
need to rely on religious beliefs?  I have, mostly in jest, talked
about my interest in the paranormal (you could call it the occult) in
other venues on GA, but I haven't developed a set of beliefs that I
rely on around that. It's mostly bunk, as far as I'm concerned and I
fully understand the Bible's warning against getting caught up in it.
When you refer to 'some book or your own imagination', I would say,
yes, lots of books, lots of real curiosity, lots of experience and
exploration . . . and, by the way, isn't your own imagination playing
a part in your own understanding of a book called the Bible?  As I
said, I was raised on Christian scripture, and I was also taught to
hold an open mind.  I didn't rebel against the message of Christ; I
just widened my interests to include Buddhism, HInduism, Sufism,
various philosophical approaches, quantum physics, even the paganism. 
Jesus himself had quite a few 'missing years'; I'd be interested to
know what your take is on what he was doing all that time?  (Some say
he was studying in India).

Long story short: I feel absolutely comfortable hanging out in the
realm of NOT KNOWING.

In fact not knowing has been the only approach that has worked for me
(although having a few working hypotheses helps at times!)  When you
question the very nature of the conceptual mind, it kind of changes
everything. The first thing that people have to face when they do this
is the fear of the void, but that's a whole other discussion.

As far as plain old garden variety beliefs go, I guess the one I try
to stick to is the Golden Rule, and I find it more than a little
disconcerting to see people hurt others in defense of their belief
system. It's one thing to not be able to really relate to someone
because they reference everything -- and I mean EVERY THING -- to one
rigid set of beliefs; it puts a certain limit on a relationship. But
when it goes beyond these simple kinds of limitations to explicit
harm, that's where I get off the bus.

My original question comes from a real curiosity, because it would be
helpful to know what certain others are believing about me, so that
maybe (maybe!) we can have a real conversation some day.

I'm still stumped about the animals . . . 

what is your understanding of animals with souls?  And where was Jesus
all those years?

ts

I am particularly interested in one part of Timespacettes question,
concerning the 'sources' of the beliefs.  If you put all your faith in
a source, the validity of all the concepts that stem from it is as
reliable as that source.  I am not very familiar with the bible, even
less so with the story surrounding it's creation.  Did god make it, or
did humans? How many translations have been made from the original to
the current form? What makes it such a trustworthy document? Can any
of these questions be answered without referencing the bible itself?
    I won't dent that the passages from the bible have very solid
moral meanings, and certainly do apply in many situations.  Yet, there
are some that seem to go against sources much more reliable than the
book itself (such as all the worlds animals fitting on a boat). 
Something about that book, or the story behind it, is able to outweigh
any contradicting statement.  From where does the faith in the bible
come?
  I hope I don?t deteriorate Timespacettes previous question but I
think if I understood how the bible could form such a solid foundation
I could begin to understand religion.  My beliefs are based on my
sources, others on theirs.  Although beliefs are abstract and, thus,
can?t be argued, their foundations are not.  I am tired of clashing
textbooks with bibles and I would like to know why a book like yours
has become such an institution.

-Fractl

Hi again, Timespacette. I have to admit, it is ONLY the Bible that I
believe in. But not blindly. I believe that the WHOLE bible is God's
direction to me to try and understand His purpose. Scriptures in
Genesis and the Old Testament MUST fit with scriptures in the New
Testament.
Revelation 14;1 says that only 144,000 will go to heaven to be with
Jesus as Kings and Priests.
Revelation 21;4 says that sickness and death will be done away with.
Psalm 37;9-12 & 28,29 says the wicked will be done away with and the
meek will inherit the earth.
John 5;28 promises the resurrection of ALL dead persons, some to life
and some to judgement.
These scriptures do not clash with one another IF the billions who
have died are resurrected back to life ON EARTH.
If there is no more death, then people will live ON. and ON. Can the
earth support such vast numbers?. The Bible does not answer, but an
all powerful God certainly has the power to make ALL the land
productive. It sure is not now. Can you imagine all the deserts of the
world as one big vegetable patch. And to back this up, look at Micah
4;4.."And they will actually sit, each one under his vine and under
his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble, for the
very mouth of Jehovah of Armies has spoken it".
Palm 72;16.."There will come to be plenty of grain on he earth".
Psalm 93;1.."The productive land also becomes firmly established so
that it cannot be made to totter".
This are prophecies of a future time.
As for Jehovah, this is God's name. God is his title. [ Psalm 83.18,
Exodus 6;3] Many translations have erroneously removed it on the
mistaken belief that it is too holy to speak. Jehovah God wants us to
be his friend, just as Abraham was. Logic says you must use your
friends name. If you want to be his friend, that is.
Now, as for animal souls. A persons soul is the complete package, the
living breathing moving complete person.
Ezekiel 18;4,20.."The soul that is sinning, it itself will die".
Ecclesiastes 3;19,20.." For there is an eventuality as respects the
sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they
have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; And
they all have but one spirit, so that there is no superiority of the
man over the beast , for everything is vanity.[20]All are going to one
place# . They have all come to be from the dust, and they are all
returning to the dust".
Animals were created before man [ Dinosaur bones are a fact, but no
human bones have ever been found with them]
Genesis 2;7..And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust
from the ground, and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, AND
THE MAN CAME TO BE A LIVING SOUL". Animals also came to BE living
souls. The complete package.

for TimeSpacette. Jesus was THE perfect man. The Messiah. But he was
also an obedient Jewish son. Only on one occasion mentioned in the
Bible, where he went missing and Joseph and Mary found him in the
temple discussing the scriptures [ the Old Testament] with the
religious leaders. He sort of chastised his parents for not knowing
that he might have been there...in his Fathers house, the temple...
All those years between the age of 12 and the age of thirty, when he
was baptised by John the Baptist, he remained an obedient son,
learning the trade of a carpenter, worshipping at the temple as a Jew,
Until the moment he was baptised, he had no knowledge of his
pre-earthly existence.  John 8;58.."Jesus said to them,"most truly I
say to you, before Abraham came into existence. I have been".
Proverbs 8;22,23,30.."Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of
his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23. From time
indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than
the earth.30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker".
Proverbs was written under inspiration by Solomon, Agur and Lemuel 716
years before Jesus was born. It is absolutely amazing that these
scriptures fit exactly with John 8;58.                                
                                           Jesus, with his total
knowledge restored at baptism, spent the next three and a half years,
until his execution, reaching the coming Kingdom. A world of peace
where everyone follows God's rules.

Hi timespacette

You've asked a nice question. Taking it more generally: What would
happen to someone who has never have any contact with any religious
doctrine.

My attempt to satisfy your question is this: We live in a relative
world i.e what you believe or I believe may be different, yet there is
an objective reality around us i.e irrespective of what I believe and
you believe we both will die. Reality. death in inevitable. So in
reality there seems to be an absolute side of things. Scientists and
practically all of us are trying to find out what that absolute
reality really is. This is intelligent. Scientists through
experimentation and deduction can comment on reality and religious
doctrine through scripture and authority can give us an idea of what
that reality is. The point being, the closer we are to that reality
the more accurate the picture.

Since we are very limited in our ability to percieve the entire
reality around us, e.g. our senses are imperfect, our knowledge is
limited, trying from the bottom us as scientists are trying i.e.
through experimentation and sense perception will only yield results
without that limitation i.e. as much as we can percieve and figure
out. However religious doctrine on the other hand has the top down
approach of getting knowledge from a perfect source and distributing
that downwards to us. Therefore that knowledge is has a great chance
of giving you the actual reality, because its coming from the
perspective of someone who already understands and can see the bigger
picture.
My point is religious scriptures can give us much more knowledge than
our scienctific counterparts could.

Although the problem with religious scripture coming down is that it
is prone to become twisted or deviated from the actual truth, based on
someones mundane interpretation or hidden motives. So we cannot be
certain it is the absolute truth. But actually we cannot be certain of
anything being the absolute truth. Its based on faith to some degree
even with modern science. However this shouldnt stop us from finding
out what knowledge is offered and based on this knowledge by
authority, one can use ones logic and sense perception to accept that
knowledge wholeheartedly.

So my final point here is that knowledge by authority has a somewhat
more advantageous position, having the bigger picture, than knowledge
by sense perception (modern science) but knowledge by sense perception
and logic can be used to test knowledge by authority for its
authenticity to whatever degree thats possible.

So coming back to your question. If a person has no knowledge of what
the, say a bonafide scripture, he may be at a distinct disadvantage
from someone who does.

In the case both people the absolute reality would still act
impartially on both of them i.e. when they die, depending on some
rules or law that both will have to be imposed upon they will get the
fair result according to their actions and the variables of that law.
A simple example is this. If one does not have knowledge of the law of
gravity, that ignorance doesn't impact the law in any way. The law of
gravity will act on both a person with or without knowledge of it. But
obiously a person with knowledge of the law of gravity is at an
advantage because he understands that law and would not try, say build
a house in the air. Similarly fire burns irrespective if a innocent
child or knowledable person touches it.

Therefore the point here is that the closer one's knowledge is to the
absolute reality, the better one can live his life. So one should try
and gain as much knowledge as he can about the world around him from
all sources: Modern science and scriptures. This is basically
searching for the truth and as a human being this is really an
essential thing to do, owing to our developed intelligence.

So firstly I would say that the fate of souls who have no knowledge of
scripture is at a disadvantage, being ignorant of facts that could
assist one to see a better picture of reality. Although choosing the
scripture which is bona-fide can pose some frustration to the
searcher, but that still doesn't deviate the seeker from gaining
knowledge about various scriptures, Christianity being one of them.

And if that scripture cannot give you any satisfaction to your
answers, then one naturally searches until he finds a scripture that
does give tangible answers to your questions.

So the fate of souls who do not have complete knowledge of the
absolute truth(either by scripture or without) will get the exact
result of what the absolute reality imposes and not what we believe
will happen to us.

According to my picture of reality some things could be said for your question:


- We are created spiritual beings with a purpose of loving God,
created by the most intelligent being, whom people refer to as God

- Our actual position is to love and serve the Supreme, anything else
will only yield temporary satisfaction, often frustration and
suffering. God in turn loves us and takes full care of us, under His
shelter.

- God has provided us with free will to choose whether to love and serve Him or not

- Misuse of that free will brings us here to this world, where the
spirit soul is placed in a perisable material body not in the direct
view of God and then is responsible for his good or bad actions.

- God has provided us with all the knowledge of this world and His
world through revealed scripture and empowered personalities.

- We are responsible for our actions in a human body due to our
intelligence to understand who God is, what His laws are, what he
expects of us in our relationship with Him, who we are and what our
actual position is.

- You get exactly what you deserve by your actions and desires,
nothing more or less. And you cannot claim ignorance of the facts,
because you are given a full chance to gain whatever knowledge you
have in this life, just as if you murdered someone and claimed, "But i
didn't know murdering was a crime". Although the reaction to one in
ignorance may be less that one in knowledge, still there would be a
reaction. Just like if you murdered someone by accident, you might
still get a jail sentence but it would be much less than an
intentional murder.


- Everyone will go to whichever destination their consciousness and
desires are at the time of death.

Death is simply a change of body:
(1) Every soul has a certain predetermined period in a particular
body. When that time is up, the soul must leave the body. That is
called death.
(2) The body dies or becomes lifeless due to the leaving of the soul.
But the soul is always alive and never dies.
(3) When the soul leaves the gross body, the subtle body carries the
soul to another body depending on the desires and actions of that
person in that current and their previous lives.

- That means if one has further desires to be away from God, or one is
not yet in complete knowledge of God and his relationship with Him,
one will have to take another body to live out those desires in this
world until one comes to the point of understanding that one cannot be
happy in this world or in any world that is not in direct relationship
with God in their natural position of loving and serving Him.