I seem to be all over the map tonight with my questions!

So, I saw this on the Martha Stewart Show: a chef on the show very
briefly and EMPHATICALLY warned that if you have a pet bird in a cage
in your kitchen and you accidentally burn a non-stick pan, that the
fumes will INSTANTLY kill the bird.

Naturally this raises some serious questions about what the stuff
could do to us hoomans. . .

Any insights on this?

Hello.

First of all, yes, there is some truth to what you heard on the Martha
Stewart's show.

Here are some articles on the subject:

"Answers to Questions about Teflon Toxicity in Pet Birds," Paul M. Gibbons, DVM
Niles Animal Hospital and Bird Medical Center
http://www.nilesanimalhospital.com/CareInfo/Avian/TeflonToxicity.html

"Teflon Toxicity (PTFE Toxicosis) in Birds"
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=15&cat=1829&articleid=2874

Here's what the folks who make Teflon say:

"Nonstick cookware, with polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) coating, can
also emit fumes harmful to birds, if cookware is accidentally heated
to high temperatures, exceeding approximately 500°F (260°C) ? well
above the temperatures needed for frying or baking. In addition, PTFE
coated drip pans should be avoided because even in normal use they
reach extremely high temperatures and can emit fumes that are
hazardous to birds. A simple rule of thumb is: never keep your pet
bird in the kitchen."
source: Teflon.com
http://www.teflon.com/NASApp/Teflon/TeflonPageServlet?pageId=/consumer/na/eng/news/news_detail.birdsafety.html



So what does this mean for human?  

Well, the risk for humans is a condition called "polymer fume fever."


From Columbia University:

"There is some danger involved, however, when heating pans treated
with PTFE to very high temperatures. When heated to over 300 degrees
Celsius / 572 degrees Fahrenheit (a temperature you won't likely reach
intentionally on your stove or in your oven), PTFE releases fumes.
These fumes can cause an illness resembling the flu, with symptoms
including tightening of the chest, mild coughing, nausea, and sweats.
It's called polymer fume fever, and it's rare.
 Birds, however, are a different story. You'll find lots of
testimonials on-line from bird owners that heating PTFE products, even
to normal cooking temperatures, releases sufficient fumes to kill
their birds. So you might want to be careful with non-stick pans
coated with PTFE if you've got birds in the house."
http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/2270.html

Also see:

Nonstick surfaces can turn toxic at high heat - Sticky Situation -
polymer-fume fever caused by teflon and other non-stick cooking
surfaces
Science News,  June 7, 2003
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1200/is_23_163/ai_104439989

USA TODAY
20 May 2003, "Teflon pans can create a sticky situation when overheated"
http://www.ecology.com/ecology-news-links/2003/articles/5-2003/5-19-03/teflon-pans.htm


"Five cockatiels (Nymphicus hollandicus) died within 30 minutes
following exposure to fumes from a frying pan coated with the
"non-stick" plastic polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE) that had
accidentally overheated. Within an hour the owner developed symptoms
of "polymer fume fever" but recovered in the next 24 hours."
source: PubMed
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1119084&dopt=Abstract


The people at Teflon state:

"Fumes from overheated non-stick coatings are no more harmful to
people than fumes from overheated cooking fats, such as oil, butter or
margarine.
 DuPont non-stick coatings have undergone exhaustive studies at the
Haskell Laboratory for Toxicology and Industrial Medicine. The United
States Food and Drug Administration has found them acceptable for
conventional kitchen use, as have health regulatory agencies
throughout the world. There have been billions of pots and pans coated
with DuPont non-stick coatings sold around the world, and DuPont knows
of no serious, chronic or acute health problems related to their use."
source: Teflon.com
http://www.teflon.com/NASApp/Teflon/TeflonPageServlet?pageId=/consumer/eu/eng/faq/faq.html#q10

Further reading:

"Teflon warning label rejected" at Delaware Online:
http://www.delawareonline.com/newsjournal/local/2003/07/12teflonwarningla.html

"Teflon Fever" at Jive Magazine:
http://www.jivemagazine.com/column.php?pid=1658

Detailed 12-page report at:
Environmental Working Group: Canaries in the Kitchen
http://www.ewg.org/reports/toxicteflon/es.php

----------
search strategy:
birds teflon fumes
ptfe birds fumes
"polymer fume fever"

I hope this helps.

---

Clarification of Answer by juggler-ga on 23 Dec 2004 01:57 PST

Sorry for those typos:

"...heard on Martha Stewart's show."

"What does this mean for humans?"

excellent as usual; great links. Thanks.

Hi Timespacette...

I'm confused....it must have been an old show right?

Steph53

Only if it's a jail bird.

Couple of cautionary anecdotes.

Many years ago in my place of work the fire alarms went off so I
extinguished the gas torch which I was using to solder a very thick
PTFE covered cable and joined the other 500 employees in the car park.
Three fire engines, couple of police cars and a hell of a lot of
disruption. No fire. An hour later, when I was re-attempting to solder
the cable, the fire alarms went off again. No smells, no smoke, but I
was beginning to notice a pattern.

The other example is aerosol tins of PTFE lubricant and mould release,
which caution boldly ?DO NOT SMOKE?. On the ?cry wolf? basis I
ignored. Three in the morning I woke up to the mother and father of
all DTs. Lasted a few hours but every muscle ached due to the
intensity of the shakes. Next time I used the spray I was much more
cautious. After the job was finished I cursorily washed my hands and
allowed myself a fag. Bad move. SCRUB hands. A (unconfirmed) rumour is
that PTFE coated exhaust pipes on motorbikes do similar things if you
are not careful where you do your test running.

So the thing is, even for hoomans, very hot PTFE gives off odourless
but nasty gasses. Lots of info on the web as to what -- wise after the
events. Moral being, don?t overheat your haggis in a non-stick frying
pan timespacette ;-)

Best

Dear Guzzi,

I'll have a few neeps and tatties, and maybe a nip of Glen Morangie . . .
but please, spare me the haggis!

slainte mhath!

ts

steph & phil:    jailbird, that's good . . . !

don't watch television, normally.  only catch it occassionally when
I'm caregiving for people in their homes . . . yes, it was before poor
Martha was incarcerated . . . last July.

well, I guess she's not really poor . . .

FREE MARTHA!

My dear Irene and Co.,

Have you not deduced the truth as yet? The matinee to which you refer
was a stern yet simple warning for poorly Martha. The bird in the cage
- Martha; the front-man in the know - The Chef; the teflon was failing
- Protection; too much heat - Insider Trading. A fruitless pursuit to
curb ones appetite of wanting more.

S Holmes

ps The Silver one has asked me to include his note with my own. encl:

                                 ~~~~~~~

Hi again all,

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=423362

Could teflon be the cause of the above problem? Does teflon emit a
blue liquid under extreme heat?

Guzzi Claus .. do motorbike exhaust pipes turn blue? If they do, is it
the chrome finish or teflon as the cause? Any relationship between
these scenarios?

How did you separate the 500 employees from the soldering in the carpark? 

TS .. Now please, do ask Irene the precise meaning of "Bahhh bahhhh
bahhhhh". I'm sure she will recall her brief and cryptic message
(since removed) in her addition to a question commented upon by both
the good Guzzi and myself. I implore Irene to put me out of my misery.
Did I type something wrong?

4 hours, 15 minutes until Christmas.

Phil

Hi Santa Phil etc

Yea I wondered about that griddle business too. I have a visual
recollection of beads of a certain liquid turning blue at high
temperature but I can?t quite bring it out. Don?t think PTFE was
implicated though. Suspect pafalafa was correct.

Exhaust systems, just to confirm that Teflon is sometimes present.....

http://www.motorsports-network.com/a2bros/

http://www.hondaeast.com/dlrindexsend_pg_catprod_levelcode_5649_catalogcode_1031_partheadernumber_90876-Exhaust+Tape.htm

http://www.carbontek.com/ctk/asp/product.asp?numRecordPosition=1&P_ID=350&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=283

... presumably for corrosion resistance when coated and I?m almost
sure I came across a reference to Triumph. Potentially unhealthy, but
what ain?t?

Blue pipes are a sign of decent welly but some designs aim for the
blued look for street cred. This seems to have replaced the ?double
skinned? downpipe trend aimed at *avoiding* the blue. No PTFE
implication as far as I am aware. Dead birds on your bike might be
though -- and I?ve had a few of these, metaphorically speaking.

500 soldered employees -- pedant :-)

BTW, it just occurred to after steph?s post that there is a very
inappropriate anagram of Santa, compounded spookily by St Nicholas and
Old Nick.

A Teflon smooth time to all.

Best

there used to be a song, back in the '60s, by Moby Grape, called Motorcycle Irene:

there she sits a smokin'
reefer in 'er mouth
her hair hangin' northward
as she travels south

dirty on her Harley
but her nails are clean
(something, something, something . . .)
Motercycle Irene!

Phil !

I'm SO sorry for putting you through misery!  I tried to find that
thread too and *poof* it's gone; what was it about again?  Something
beyond the boundaries of good taste?

Well, anyway, you didn't write anything I was Bah-humbugging; it was
just a reference to hoomans grazing like sheep, is all.  These sheep
have since had a grand old time over in threadview
<http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=446354> where they
found their way out of the Logic Gate.

may the new year be as merry and bright,

ts

Hi Motorcycle Irene and Moto Guzzi Claus,

Thanks TS, now it all makes sense. The question was in good taste of
course. I was just too slow to pick up on your humour! Getting old you
know! It was a question by a Peter, asking about weight gain. Anyhow,
have you progressed further with your safe cracking? I've said it
before, but Mr Holmes assures me that you may have some advantage in
viewing the library's original 1956 ledger entry referring to the
safe's code.

Guzzi, thanks for the interesting info on the bikes. I see that the
nickel coated pipes turn amber. Cool man !!

500 - a batallion of solders perhaps?? And Santa is in fact an old devil I see.

Catch ya again soon guys. Phil

TS,

http://www.mobygrape.net/lyrics/wow.html

I like the lyrics. Thanks for sharing that.

Super-powered, de-flowered
Over-eighteen Irene ..

The stark naked, unsacred
Motorcycle Irene ..

Phil

TS,

Granville asked me to pass this on.


MOTORCYCLE SPACETTE

There she sits a typin'
A scotch be 'er side
Her head hangin' southbound
When her 'puter died

Now it's up a runnin'
Surfin' on the 'Net
She's beside 'er self
Motorcycle Spacette

She looks for the answers
Makes a better world
Where are we goin' now?
Her answers unfurled

The egg or the chicken
It's anyone's bet
The first to arrive now
Motorcycle Spacette

Knowin' all the answers
Breakin' all the rules
Saturated hatred
Is only for fools

We've heard her from 'er chair
Ever in 'er debt
Laugh, cry and argue
Motorcycle Spacette

Phil

Phil:

oh boy!  A 60's flashback! 

. . . Curve-winding, bump 'n' grindin'
Motorcycle Irene!

. . . Stark-raven, un-shaven
Motorcycle Irene!

(glad you left out some of those other lyrics . . . )

and PLEASE tell Granville of my appreciation. . .

(alter-egos can have fun too!)

ts