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Subject:
How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
Category: Science > Physics Asked by: christopher99-ga List Price: $15.00 |
Posted:
22 Feb 2006 06:53 PST
Expires: 24 Mar 2006 06:53 PST Question ID: 448350 |
I am a keen but novice skydiver. In free fall when working on a formation with others it is important to equalise one's fall speed with the other jumpers. It is common to see lighter jumpers strapping on weight belts in order to help them "keep up" with their heavier (larger?) colleagues. I have suggested that this is ineffective as it is cross sectional area and drag which affects fall speed not weight. The response is "look I have been jumping for years and have x thousand jumps - what do you know about it when you have only 200 jumps?" It is clear that in a vacuum weight will have no affect (Galileo etc.) Every molecule will be equally accelerated at 32ft/sec/sec. Bring the air into the calculation and we are dealing with air resistance or drag - mass has no effect on this. However if we think of the skydiver's body as a wing, does the concept of wing loading have any relevance? Have I missed something or are thousands of skydivers wrong?? |
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Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 24 Feb 2006 04:34 PST |
Hi Christopher99, Sometimes too many answer can obscure the truth. As you have probably realized, this is one of those frequently mis-answered questions (FMAQs?) a sub species of urban legends, like the infamous Is glass a liquid or a solid? http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=527647 http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=419211 So, first, just BTW, the legend: The Galileo story is apocryphal. While some of his predecessors actually performed this experiment, Galileo did not. http://www.endex.com/gf/buildings/ltpisa/ltpnews/physnews1.htm In your case, friction is the air resistance, governed by Stokes law: http://www.cord.edu/faculty/ulnessd/legacy/fall1998/sonja/stokes.htm Force of friction is constant * speed (of body relative to medium) So, when you step out of the plane, your (vertical) speed is zero and for a moment you are right.At this point, friction is zero and mass plays no role. 1) Here the equation of motion is (* means multiply ) M *g = M *a which means (M cancels out) a = g (acceleration is equal to 9.81 m / s*s) However, when you get up some speed, the situation changes. 2)When you reach terminal velocity so that there is no further acceleration, then the equation of motion is (* means multiply, constant depends on size and shape etc) M*g = constant * speed You see here that your speed depends on mass M. It is proportional to mass. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/JianHuang.shtml 3) In the intermediate regime, there are 3 effects: gravity, acceleration, and friction. Therefore, the equation. of motion has three terms M*g + M*a = constant * speed and mass does not cancel. So speed will depend on mass. The more experienced divers are right. Solution of this third or general case, the physics of 'free fall with friction' is provided by this applet http://lectureonline.cl.msu.edu/~mmp/kap4/cd095a.htm Use the control sliders to turn friction on and off. If you need any further clarification, please feel free to ask. Search terms: Stokes law Terminal velocity Free fall with friction |
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Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: rracecarr-ga on 22 Feb 2006 12:33 PST |
A weight belt will make you fall faster. Terminal velocity is reached when drag equals weight. A weight belt increases weight without increasing drag (much). Drag increases with speed, so a body with a weight belt on must fall faster before drag matches weight. Look, take two balloons and fill one with air and the other with water. Which falls faster? The drag is no different, only the weight. |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: mikewa-ga on 22 Feb 2006 12:51 PST |
The factors affecting a body falling through a fluid (and we can treat air as afluid for this) are Gravitational force- this will not change enough to be of importance The viscosity of the fluid: again we do not need to consider this if everyon eis jumping from the same height The shape of the object: in skydiving this is important but for this question I assume everyone stays in the same position The difference in density between the object and the fluid. This is the crux of the matter. As techtor points out, adding a weight belt increases mass without significantly altering the volume, thus the density increases |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: rracecarr-ga on 22 Feb 2006 13:54 PST |
You can ignore the density of the air. The buoyant force of the air is insignificant whether or not the diver wears a weight belt. A large (100kg) diver would experience of a buoyant force of only 1 N or less (100 grams). At terminal velocity, the drag force is at least 1000 times bigger than the buoyant force. On the other hand, buoyancy may be significant in my balloon example. |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: brix24-ga on 22 Feb 2006 20:59 PST |
Perhaps one of the following may be helpful to you. * Effect of a large weight addition (tandem jumping). The site below doesn't say anyone actually tested this, but I'll presume that they did. It also doesn't explain the reason behind the effect of extra weight - but you may be familiar with this effect. "Just after jumping out, the instructor throws out a large (approx. 4-foot/1.2-m diameter) drogue chute, and this drogue is out during the entire free fall. Without this drogue, the combined weight of the instructor and student would cause the pair to fall at 180 to 200 mph (290 to 320 kph) -- much faster than the normal 120 mph. The drogue slows the pair down to the normal falling speed." http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/skydiving1.htm * Free fall; the skydiver accelerates until reaching a constant velocity. At this point, there is no more net acceleration (approximately) and the net force on the skydiver is zero, that is, the force of gravity is balanced by the opposing force of drag. This is different from a fall in a vacuum where the falling object is always picking up speed. "The skydiver accelerates to 120 mph (190 kph) in about 10 seconds and is then in free fall." http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/skydiving1.htm * Terminal velocity and equations for it. There are two forces affecting terminal velocity: the force of gravity and the opposing force of drag. There is a NASA site that has a good overview of this; unfortunately, the top part of the site is a gif and I cannot paste it here. You may wish to take a look at the equations and statements in color on this site: http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/termvr.html My interpretation re the "F = D - W" equation: In a vacuum, only the F=W (aka F=mg) part needs to be considered. Although gravity exerts a stronger force on a more massive object, a larger force is needed to accelerate ("budge") a more massive object. However, these effects balance out, and all objects accelerate at the same rate and have the same velocity at a given point when falling in a vacuum. In air, an object reaches terminal velocity when the air resistance (drag) equals the force exerted by gravity. A more massive object experiences a stronger force due to gravity (but not a greater acceleration) and so requires a greater drag (counterforce) to balance the force of gravity. (Gravity is still acting, but velocity becomes constant at this point during free fall.) As shown in the NASA equation, drag depends on a number of things, but I'm only going to cover area and velocity. I will assume that the cross-section area is not too different between different jumpers and is subject to modification, e.g., amount of arching. So I'm left with a consideration of velocity as a major variable determinant of drag; as the equation shows, drag increases as the square of velocity. In air, gravity affects all falling objects equally in terms of acceleration and velocity; however, drag increases as the skydiver falls until it equals the force of gravity, and the force of gravity is larger for more massive objects. Thus, a more massive object will require more drag to cancel out gravity; the falling speed that produces enough force to cancel the force of gravity on a smaller object is not great enough to cancel all the force of gravity on a more massive object, so the more massive object will still accelerate until it reaches a higher speed, at which point, the force exerted by the drag at a higher speed balances the force exerted by gravity. I think the key to the problem is that there is uniform acceleration due to gravity, but in skydiving, you achieve (after about 10 seconds) a zero acceleration state due to an opposing force, drag. Acceleration due to gravity is constant between objects, but the force of gravity is not. The opposing force of drag depends on the velocity. Perhaps these equations will help: Force (massive object) = mass (massive object) * acceleration due to gravity (constant between objects) Force (less massive object) = mass (less massive object) * acceleration due to gravity (same as above) Opposing drags: Drag (massive object) = ..... velocity (massive object) squared Drag (less massive object) = ...... velocity (less massive object) squared Since the total force exerted by gravity is larger for the more massive object, it will fall faster until its drag finally balances the force of gravity. |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: brix24-ga on 23 Feb 2006 06:48 PST |
I would like to restate my last paragraph. Since the total force exerted by gravity is greater for a more massive object, it will take a greater drag to balance this force than for a similar less massive object. Assuming equals areas for contact with air (between two objects - skydivers in this case), the drag that balances the force of gravity on the less massive object will not fully balance the force of gravity on the more massive object and the more massive object will continue to accelerate until it reaches a greater speed where the drag then equals the force of gravity on the more massive object. (I hope that this is a bit clearer.) |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: christopher99-ga on 23 Feb 2006 11:45 PST |
Thank you everyone. This has all been very helpfull. I think that I have got it now! |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: egon_spangler-ga on 27 Feb 2006 13:09 PST |
This has always bothered me too. I've never been skydiving but i guess at some point during the fall (10 seconds from the observations listed here) that this is not true: "The skydiver accelerates to 120 mph (190 kph) in about 10 seconds and is then in free fall." They skydiver isn't in free fall nore does he feel free fall, friction sees to that. I guess that means that once terminal velocity is reached you feel almost like you are laying on your stomach. |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: rracecarr-ga on 27 Feb 2006 15:19 PST |
Stoke's Law does not apply to a skydiver. It is only approximately valid for Reynold's numbers less than 10. As the Reynold's number of a skydiver is over 1,000,000, Stoke's Law would predict a drag that is perhaps 4 orders of magnitude too low. In this regime, the drag force not equal to a constant times the velocity. It comes much closer to being proportional to the square of the velocity. |
Subject:
Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed?
From: hedgie-ga on 27 Feb 2006 21:14 PST |
rracecarr-ga says in Subject: Re: How does weight affect a skydivers fall speed? From: rracecarr-ga on 27 Feb 2006 15:19 PST Stoke's Law does not apply to a skydiver. It is only approximately valid for Reynold's numbers less than 10. That is true. The equation I consider in the answer may apply to something like bale of cotton. I did concentrate on the physical mechanism, effect of mass, not on complex question on how drag depends on velocity. Details of that are discussed in a reference I quoted: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/JianHuang.shtml Speed of a Skydiver (Terminal Velocity) Hedgie |
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