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Q: Electronics & Computers made with Nanotechnology before 2004 ( Answered,   0 Comments )
Question  
Subject: Electronics & Computers made with Nanotechnology before 2004
Category: Science > Technology
Asked by: jane_asks-ga
List Price: $125.00
Posted: 26 Mar 2005 09:49 PST
Expires: 25 Apr 2005 10:49 PDT
Question ID: 500730
The Question:

Find commercial products that are electronics, devices, computers,
machines, and related products, made using nanotechnology and/or
nanomaterials prior to May 2004.  By commercial products I mean products
available to the public for purchase prior to May 2004, I do not mean
products in development and I do not mean laboratory experiments. 
Also, it is very important that you know that I mean a very broad
definition of nanomaterials covering nanomaterials measuring from
about 0.1nm. (nanometer) up to about 1000 nm. (1 micron).

Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.
Is this true and if so, can you provide more information on this, 
e.g, what kind of devices were made, what parts of them were 
nanoscale or nanomaterials?

This is an involved question and I would like the answer to be as
thorough as possible.  I think I will need to communicate with the
researcher to guide the work as it is done to a certain extent. I 
have never used this service before.  I would like to make 
sure that the research is going well before spending more money.  
It is my understanding that I can always increase the amount of 
money I spend on this question.

I am most interested in information on commercial products that might
have been purchased by an ordinary person prior to May 2004.  For
example, I am interested in the use of nanotechnology and
nanomaterials in common electronics products, like televisions, tape
recorders, cameras, computers, stereos, radios, lights, appliances
(small and large), batteries, solar cells, door bells, and other
products an ordinary person might have bought.

Your Answer:

Please include the dates or the approximate dates that the commercial
products you find were available for the public to purchase and please
include how you know of this date.  Please note the size in nanometers
of the form or nanotechnology or nanomaterial used in each product you
find.  Please include all other information you know about each
product you find, but no need to search for additional product 
information.  Also, please cite all relevant sources that you find in 
your research, especially those you are relying on for your answer.

I am available to answer any questions you have and to guide your
research.  I will do anything I can to assist and guide your research
so that you are able to come up with a thorough, excellent answer.


The following list of things you should exclude from your research
is broader than the area of the question - electronics, devices,
computers, machines, and other such commercial products.  But it
seemed better just to send you the whole list rather than edit it
down.

Exclusions from your Research:  

Exclude any product that is too small to be visible to the human eye
if it is not part of a commercial product large enough to be seen by
the unaided human eye.

Exclude anything made for use in: medicine, dentistry, biology, or
pharmaceuticals;

exclude biosensors (e.g., for detecting anthrax, DNA etc); 

exclude tools, instruments, software and chemicals made for use in
nanotechnology (unless the chemicals are part of another commercial
product);

exclude things made for security or national security purposes (though
the use of nanotechnology in a product like a home or office security
alarm device would not be excluded);

exclude things made for outer space, rockets, transportation, tires, or cars; 

exclude things made for food, cosmetics, foot care products, baby
products, skin care products, sunscreens, and other body care
products;

exclude cutting tools; exclude military uses of nanotechnology; 

exclude ecological uses, filtration and water purification; 

exclude sports uses (such as golf balls and tennis rackets); 

exclude water resistant and/or wrinkle free clothes, clothes for
athletics, clothes that have thermal properties, clothes that maintain
or monitor body temperature or heart rate, clothes that communicate
with the laundry, etc.;

exclude organic, biological and natural materials (like blood cells,
human hair and bacteria) if they are not used in a non-natural or
man-made material, product, device, or item that can be seen by the
unaided eye.


Thank you!

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 26 Mar 2005 22:16 PST
Hi Jane,
           Usually, this 'Request for Question Clarification' or RFC is used
when researcher considers answering a question. This however is  a
suggestion how to reformulate the question (yes, once more) so that it
is easier to answer. Other researchers views may differ from mine, of
course, nevertheless I will enumerate the difficulties which I see.  I
have interest in this field and may consider to answer a suitably
modified question-
 Here a sample of my past work:
 http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=296019
 
 1) Question of type "list all ... " are next to impossible to answer.
It would take infinite amount of time to prove that  nothing was left
behind.
 2) Your goal is not clear. I am guessing you want to write an essay
about the issue. But if so, why you are excluding almost everything is
not clear. It would be easier to say what you are after, than saying
'except this and this and this .. (see 1).
 3) Technical level on which you want to operate is not clear. Some
formulations (e.g.  materials measuring from about 0.1nm ..) indicate
non-technical background. That is OK, but researcher needs to know at
which level to write the answer. Non-technical level opens another
question: are you interesting about any products which CLAIM
nanotechnology, such as   e.g.
    http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=494675  
or only those which make sense? The word is becoming a buzzword, used
indiscriminately.
 4) Question is contradictory (you exclude electronics and then
include it, and then ask about lithography (which in this context
seems to be method of making chips- microchips as the are called in
popular press).
 5) Main application today would be that, namely microchips and
micro-arrays (or perhaps we could call them nanochips?). Often theese
are called sub-micron manufacturing technologies (for electronics and
bioassay arrays) . If these are included - each is full topic itself
for a $100 question.
 6) The 'guiding' implies duration. Usually, high price like yours
buys 5 to 8 hours of researchers time - and dialog is made exclusively
via RFCs. May be hiring a free-lance researcher may be a better 
option for you (look at elance.com).
 7) Finally - it is not clear if you are looking for an essay - or
rather list of references. The second choice (list of hyper-links) (or
books [specify]) is more doable, when topic is this broad and
unfocused.  You would have to study the references, make selection,
and write the research report yourself.
    
    So, I recommend this: expire this and post a new small and narrow
question - for about $20. You will educate yourself about the field,
it's terminology  and how GA works. Then, in second phase, you can
pose more focused question if the process works for you.
    
    Hedgie

Clarification of Question by jane_asks-ga on 27 Mar 2005 01:01 PST
Thank you for your advise Hedgie!  It is late in the middle of the
night but I have rewritten my question.  Its a draft, not ready to
post online.  Please let me know if I have  clarified the question
sufficiently.  Also I would appreciate your advise on how it needs to
be priced.

In response to this part of your comment,

5) Main application today would be that, namely microchips and
micro-arrays (or perhaps we could call them nanochips?). Often theese
are called sub-micron manufacturing technologies (for electronics and
bioassay arrays) . If these are included - each is full topic itself
for a $100 question.

I do need information on the use of nanotechnology in computers but I
need information on past use, prior to May 2004, not use of nanotech
today and not future use.  Also, I do not know what a micro-array is. 
A bioasay sounds like a product that I do not need informaiton about
(see rewritten question below).  Would a micro-array be in a computer
or other commercial product?

I guess I do need information on commercial products made by
"sub-micron manufacturing" processes  prior to May 2004.

Its really late now, I am falling asleep.  Here is my rewritten
question.  I would appreciate your advise.

The Question:

I am writing an essay and need to find commercial products made using
nanotechnology and/or nanomaterials prior to May 2004 that an ordinary
person who is not in a scientific or technical profession might have
purchased and used prior to May 2004 (e.g., a product a musician, a
housewife, a 10th grade student, or a school teacher might have
bought).  I am narrowing this question down to a search for commercial
products that are electronics, devices, computers, machines, and
related products, (I intend to ask other questions asking about other
kinds of commercial products made using nanotechnology and/or
nanomaterials prior to May 2004.  I am preparing these additional
questions now.)

By commercial products I mean products available to the public for
purchase prior to May 2004, I do not mean products in development and
I do not mean laboratory experiments.  Also, it is very important that
you know that I mean a very broad definition of nanomaterials covering
nanomaterials measuring from about 0.1nm. (nanometer) up to about 1000
nm. (1 micron).  The commercial products found in this search need to
actually have been made using nanotechnology and/or nanomaterials (the
use of nanotechnology in the product cannot just be a claim or a sales
pitch ? I have no interest in this kind of product).

For example, I am interested in the use of nanotechnology and
nanomaterials in common electronics products, like televisions, tape
recorders, cameras, computers, stereos, radios, lights, appliances
(small and large), batteries, solar cells, door bells, and other
products an ordinary person might have bought.  Exclude commercial
products made for and used people in scientific and technical
professions, such as scientists, doctors, dentists, NASA
professionals, etc.  There is further description of exclusions below.

Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.  Is this true and if so, what kind of devices
were made, what parts of them were nanoscale or nanomaterials?  If
this was used to make computers, would those have been the kind of
computers sold for people who are not scientists or technical
professionals to use or would they have been specialized computers for
medical use or space exploration?  Are these nanotech ?standard
lithography techniques? used for lots of different kinds of products?

Your Answer:

I do not need highly technical answers and I may not understand such
answers.  Please provide basic answers and I will let you know if I
need more technical information.  Though I am not a scientist or a
technical person, I do have a better understanding of the technical
aspects of these things than most people in who are not scientists or
technical professionals.  (There were lots of scientists and doctors
in my family and I have done a fair amount of reading.)

I do not need to find every single product that fits into the
parameters I specified.

Please search thoroughly for all the categories of different kinds of
uses of nanotechnology in different kinds of commercial products,
e.g., a certain nanomaterial was used in a certain way, in certain
parts in particular kinds of computers.

Please search thoroughly to find the major examples, e.g., I would
hate to not find out about a nanomaterial commonly used in tape
recorders before 2004 by most manufacturers.

If you know of examples, please add them to your list as well as
examples you happen to stumble upon when searching.

Please provide a list of the commercial products you find.  Hyperlinks
would be fine.  This is what I need to know:

(a)  that the products you find were sold prior to May 2004, so please
include the dates or the approximate dates or be sure the hyperlink
leads to this information.

(b)  how you know of this date if it is not obvious from the hyperlink.  

(c)  Please provide a basic, not too technical, not too involved
explanation of the nanotechnology used in the product, or make sure
the hyperlink leads me to this information.  I will want to know the
size or approximate size in nanometers of the form of nanotechnology
or nanomaterial used in each product you find (I should have this
because I am using such a broad definition of nanomaterial, up to 1000
nm).

(d) Please also include whatever basic information you know about each
product and its use of nanotechnology, no need to search for
additional product information.  A hyper link to the product
information will suffice.

(e) Please cite the relevant sources / hyperlinks that you find in
your research, especially those you are relying on for your answer.

(f) if you are not sure whether a kind of electronic product would be
something an ordinary person who does not have a scientific or
technical profession would buy, please check with me before
researching it.

I am available to answer any questions you have.  I will do anything I
can to assist and guide your research so that you are able to come up
with a thorough, excellent answer.


Exclusions from your Research: (These are almost all products that an
ordinary person who is not in a scientific or technical profession
would not be purchasing, with the exception of cars and tires, which I
have enough information on already.)

-- Exclude any product that is too small to be visible to the unaided
human eye if it is not part of a commercial product large enough to be
seen by the unaided human eye.

-- Exclude anything made for use in: medicine, dentistry, biology, or
pharmaceuticals;

-- exclude biosensors (e.g., for detecting anthrax, DNA etc); 

-- exclude tools, instruments, software and chemicals made for use in
nanotechnology or for use in another scientific or technical
profession;

-- exclude things made for security or national security purposes
(though the use of nanotechnology in a product like a home or office
security alarm device would not be excluded);

-- exclude things made for outer space, rockets, transportation, tires, or cars; 

-- exclude cutting tools; exclude military uses of nanotechnology; 

-- exclude ecological uses, filtration and water purification; 

-- exclude clothes that maintain or monitor body temperature or heart
rate, and exclude clothes that communicate with the laundry (I have
information on these already and I do not think the communicating
clothes are products yet),



Though I cannot see how these exclusions would be in the realm of
commercial products that are electronics, devices, computers,
machines, and related products, I have heard that nanotechnology and
nanomaterials were used in them, maybe prior to May 2004.  So I
thought I would mention them anyway.

-- exclude sports uses (such as golf balls and tennis rackets); 

-- exclude water resistant and/or wrinkle free clothes, clothes for
athletics, clothes that have thermal properties, etc.;

-- exclude things made for food, cosmetics, foot care products, baby
products, skin care products, sunscreens, and other body care
products;

-- exclude organic, biological and natural materials (like blood cells,
human hair and bacteria) if they are not used in a non-natural or
man-made material, product, device, or item that can be seen by the
unaided eye.


Thank you!

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 27 Mar 2005 06:29 PST
Jane
      I appreciate quick response and clarification.
 I have now better idea about the level and the extent - 
but I am still a bit confused by instructions like:

"Exclude anything made for use in: medicine, dentistry, biology, or
pharmaceuticals" 

 Do you mean for use by professionals (dentist ,..) or do you mean 
exclude all medicines, health care products (like sun-screens) 

1) The list of 'exclusions' is so long that I wonder what remains.
So, here is one question for you :

 Please look at the list of all consumer product categories and list
just those which are to be included in the survey.
List of categories can be found (as drop menus) e.g. at 


http://www.amazon.com  all products        books .. arts and hobbies 
http://www.ebay.com/    all categories     antiques.. whosale

But you cannot not include  'everything else' category of course :-)

2) With the computers - we really would include chip making only. Some
sub-micron methods were used prior to 2004. But we would not try to
list all consumer products which have chips. Would that be
satisfactory? Do you now what these microchips are?

3) Please do read first a bit on what nanotech is and history:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanotechnology
and
http://www.nanotech-now.com/Press_Kit/nanotechnology-history.htm
and see of it may help to sharpen the focus some more.

4) micro-arrays are only used in lab so far - so we will exclude them
    (this what they are:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_microarray
) OK?

I will look at your clarification Monday (Do you have a deadline?)
Hedgie

Clarification of Question by jane_asks-ga on 28 Mar 2005 07:52 PST
Hi Hedgie,

Thanks for the reading suggestions but I actually have done a lot of
reading about nanotechnology for a number of years.  I just cannot
understand the really technical documents.   But I definitely think my
knowledge of nanotech and my technical comprehension are greater than
you are assuming in your last note.   It does not matter because I do
not think what I need you to communicate to me is highly technical.

As I mentioned, I need a thorough search done.  I do not need or
expect every commercial product found but I hope that you can find all
the categories of commercial products and all of the major examples
within each category.  I know you cannot guarantee to find ?all? but I
would like an exhaustive search done and a serious attempt to find all
which should enable you to find all categories and all major examples.

Here is a fictitious example that has no basis in fact.  If you find
that silicon nanowires were used to conduct electricity between parts
of computer chips in 2001 and there are tons of variations in their
design, provided all of the variations fit in to the category of
silicon nanowires used to conduct electricity between computer chips
parts in 2001, I do not need to know details of different variations
of these computer chips.  If a category of products can be narrowed
down further that is good, e.g., maybe the category is just silicon
nanowires used to conduct electricity between Intel brand computer
chips parts in 2001; or maybe the category is silicon nanowires used
to conduct electricity between certain specific kinds of parts in
computer chips in 2001.

In response to your comment:
2) With the computers - we really would include chip making only. Some
sub-micron methods were used prior to 2004. But we would not try to
list all consumer products which have chips. Would that be
satisfactory? Do you now what these microchips are?

Yes, I understand.  That would actually be great.  In your example
(which sounds real and not fictitious) the category would be something
like electronic products or devices made with microchips made prior to
may 2004 such as computers (maybe you can give one or two additional
kinds of product examples just to show the scope of the category). 
Then I need to know more specifically what the nanotechnology or
nanotechnologies used on the microchips prior to May 2004 was in order
to distinguish these microchips from other kinds made before and after
May 2004.

Your idea of looking through the list of products at various websites
is a good one.  Here is my list.

Commercial Products to Include in your Research:
You are searching for electronics products an ordinary person might
have bought prior to May 2004 that are made using actual
nanotechnology or nanomaterials, such as:

--- televisions, tape recorders, answering machines, cameras,
computers, date storage devices, computer monitors, scanners,
printers, stereos, musical instruments, CD players, DVDs, VCRs,
radios, lights, appliances (small and large), batteries, solar cells,
door bells, telephones, cell phones, clocks, toys, cables for
electronics, projectors, PDAs, CD Rom disks, cassette tapes, computer
disks, fans, vacuum cleaners,  speakers

It is very important that you know that I mean a very broad definition
of nanomaterials covering nanomaterials measuring from about 0.1nm.
(nanometer) up to about 1000 nm. (1 micron).


--------------------------------------------

Exclusions from your Research: 
(These are almost all products that an ordinary person who is not in a
scientific or technical profession would not be purchasing, with the
exception of cars, tires, which I have enough information on already
and drugs which do not sound like electronics to me.)

-- Exclude anything that was not actually a commercial product prior
to May 2004, such as all laboratory experiments, all ideas that never
took off, and all products in development.

-- Exclude anything that was not actually made using nanotechnology or
nanomaterials such as products that claim nanotechnology or that use
it as a  sales pitch

-- Exclude any product that is too small to be visible to the unaided human eye
if it is not part of a commercial product large enough to be seen by
the unaided human eye.

-- Exclude anything made for use in: medicine, dentistry, biology, or
pharmaceuticals, including drugs or medications, health care products,
instruments, monitors of various kinds, devices, x-ray machines,
microscopes, chemcials, etc.;

-- exclude biosensors (e.g., for detecting anthrax, DNA etc); 

-- exclude tools, instruments, software and chemicals made for use in
nanotechnology or for use in another scientific or technical profession;

-- exclude things made for security or national security purposes (though
the use of nanotechnology in a product like a home or office security
alarm device would not be excluded);

-- exclude things made for outer space, rockets, transportation,
tires, or cars I have information on cars and tires already);

-- exclude cutting tools; exclude military uses of nanotechnology
(e.g., clothing, weapons, instruments,  etc);

-- exclude ecological uses, filtration and water purification; 

-- exclude clothes that maintain or monitor body temperature or heart
rate, and exclude clothes that communicate with the laundry (I have
information on these already and I do not think the communicating
clothes are products yet),


It would be great to have this search done as soon as possible or
early this week.  In the next few days I will be posting related
questions on Google, asking about other kinds of things that might
have been made using nanotechnology or nanomaterials prior to May
2004, e.g., coatings, paints, pigments, inks, adhesives, photographic
paper, other papers, pottery glazes, textiles, fabrics, etc.  So if
you happen upon other information and/or sources for information on
the use of nanotechnology or nanomaterials prior to May 2004 please
let me know.

Do you think I have set an appropriate price for this search?  

I appreciate your kindness Hedgie!

Best regards,

Jane
Answer  
Subject: Re: Electronics & Computers made with Nanotechnology before 2004
Answered By: hedgie-ga on 28 Mar 2005 21:33 PST
 
Jane,

        I did the initial phase of the research, and the result
surprising - and I hope not disappointing. The initial result is that
there are very few actual consumer products on the market even now.
Many existing products, look like  Elicarb? . Certainly a product - it
cost 200 pound per gram - but certainly not a consumer product. It
sold to researchers in the field.
Here are detail on this example:  
http://www.thomas-swan.co.uk/pages/nano_products.html

Normally I would just continue to the next phase, but this time, to
give you opportunity to influence and steer the search, I will post
what I have and I expect reasonable number of RFCs before completing
the search. To facilitate such interaction, I will also comment
methods and technique used in the search.

Since result is somewhat negative, close to 'no such products', I
looked for compendiums and product catalogs, to make (reasonably) sure
that we are not overlooking anything.

First clue about the state of commercialization of this emerging
technology is here:

A)  follow the venture capital
  Seven Nanotech companies were voted "Most Promising Nanotech
Company" at the Nanotech Venture Fair, held on September 4 & 5, 2002
in La Jolla, CA.
 
 Due to popular demand the second annual Nanotech Venture Fair is
scheduled for 2003. Please visit the Nanotech Venture Fair website for
the latest information: http://www.nanotechventurefair.com
 
 These are all startups - and some may come out with a product within
a year or two.
 
 "Most Promising Nanotech Companies" are: Advanced Diamond
Technologies, Fluidigm Corporation, Nanomix, NanoMuscle, Nanosys,
Inc., and NTera Ltd.
 
 We get three  hits for more detailed investigation 

1)
 Nanosys  -- Fuel Cells

".. We are utilizing our nanostructure technology to help develop high
performance fuel cells for use in portable consumer electronics such
as laptop computers, cell phones and digital cameras ..."
http://www.nanosysinc.com/app/

2)  NanoMuscle equipped toys 
  
    NanoMuscle puts a little life in toys

    What is "Nano" about a NanoMuscle?
    NanoMuscle, Inc. will begin volume production of NanoMuscle
Actuators in the beginning of Q3 of 2001.
    
http://www.gfec.com.tw/english/service/content/enanomuscle_faq.htm
 
 
 NanoMuscle website is gone - but there is a definition in the toy store
 NanoMuscle?
The amazing new NanoMuscle Actuator contains a long length of SMA Wire
in a compact electromechanical device that amplifies the stroke and
motion of the wire, and provides for easy mounting and
controllability. For silent, direct linear action, grab hold of
NanoMuscles.
 
 http://www.robotstore.com/catalog/list.asp?cid=42
 
 
 
3) NTERA Nano Technology. the next generation in Nano Chromics
Displays ... NTERA has developed an electrochromic display technology
using nanostructured film ...
www.ntera.com/technology/NteraNanoTech.asp


4) Other  optical devices : anti-vibration lenses and DLP and LCoS devices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Micromirror_Device

  Then few not-fittings entries:

Cabolat Tennis racquets with Carbon nanotubes (excluded as sports product)

Cerax Nanowax: improves ski's glide           (excluded as sports product)

5) Clarity Defender: automotive glass protection

Ecotru: Nanoemulsion disinfection             (excluded as health product)   right?

These are from 
Nanotechnology Products and applications/Commercial products/2005 and
before : companies, profiles and links:
http://www.nanovip.com/directory/Products_and_applications/Commercial_products/2005_and_before/index.php

http://www.signweb.com/neon/prods/sidiamondtech.html


B) Find the industry product directory (you may want to pursue this
one, on your own Jane)

Small Tech Business Directory guide  for $29 - oder on line - below
This is the most comprehensive listing of nanotechnology, MEMS and
microsystems companies, along with service providers. Updated
annually, the 2005 edition contains over 3,100 listings from 45
countries.

http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=4228&CFID=24792043&CFTOKEN=39101459

or online 
http://www.smalltechdirectory.com:80/directory/directory.asp

and (classification of products - but has nothing under the keyword
'nanotechnology' but lists 15 companies with
'nano' in their name including 

we get 

5) US Nanocorp 
http://www.usnanocorp.com  

 which makes energy storage products and energy conversion devices
such as fuel cells, batteries, electrochemical supercapacitors, and
thermoelectrics
      
      Here I am not sure if this is excluded: Battery and fuel cell
can be consumer product, but these are made for defense applications -
are they excluded?

 Anyway - here is the directory
      
http://www.hoovers.com/free/ind/dir.xhtml

 and list of nano companies for later investigation
http://www.hoovers.com/free/search/simple/xmillion/index.xhtml?page=1&query_string=nano&x=31&y=10&which=company

and

Nanotechnology Products and applications/Commercial products/2005 and
before : companies, profiles and links:
http://www.nanovip.com/directory/Products_and_applications/Commercial_products/2005_and_before/index.php

and an review article:

Nanotechnology's First Fruits
Products nearing market promise to lead the budding industry from hype to reality

Hal Plotkin, Special to SF Gate -Thursday, June 6, 2002

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/06/06/nanotch.DTL



C) Lets find an industry conference in a given year 

  - here is it:

http://www.nsti.org/Nanotech2003/

namely:	
Nanotech 2003
2003 Nanotechnology Conference and Trade Show
Nanotech 2003
February 23-27, 2003
Grand Hyatt San Francisco
San Francisco , California, U.S.A.
 
This is their classification: 

    * Carbon Nano Structures
    * Metallic Nano Systems
    * Atomistic Modeling of Nanoscale Devices
    * Physical Chemistry of Nanomaterials
    * PEM Fuel Cells
    * Nano Devices and Systems
    * Nano Composites
    * Nano Particles and Molecules
    * Surfaces and Films
    * Micro and Nano Structuring and Assembly
    
    The conferences have Trade Show  of products and it may be
possible to get a catalog
    (or a CD) listing all exhibitors. I suggest asking at local
library or writing to organizers
    directly if past volumes (200 -- 1004) are available.
    
   List of ' 2004 Participating Organizations' to the bottom of the
http://www.nsti.org/Nanotech2003/
   is another source of leads. 
   
   To visit this conference in May 2005 in Anaheim may be another
source of leads - I do not know what
   your options are (Hedgie).
 


    
D)   Nanotechnology site
http://www.aleph.se/Trans/Tech/Nanotech/


  CLASSIFICATION 
  We also get, probing a bit further, a possible rationale for the exclusions:
  
"... The next five years should see the development of biosensors for
detecting DNA, protein, and anthrax"
  http://hbswk.hbs.edu/pubitem.jhtml?id=2781&t=special_reports_vcpi2002
  
  You want to exclude product which have already been found by common
googling, right?
  

  Let's try an early categorization of what is  in near commercializing state:
  using information in reports collected here:
  http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=302498
  
 We see these main types: 
   materials, micro-arrays, chips, actuators, sensors, fabric, 

   
   materials have these subdivisions: : exotic molecules,
                                        small particles ,
"nanoparticles"(suspensions and powders)
                                        smart paint pigments and coatings" 
  micro-arrays will blossom into "personal health diagnostics" but are
not on the market yet
  
  
 other sub-categories: tools (techniques/equipment for visualization,
measurement, and
manipulation at the nanoscale), materials (fullerenes, carbon
nanotubes, ceramic and metal nanopowders, nanocomposites, etc.),
electronics (microprocessors, arrays of transistors, quantum
computing), and biotech (disease mechanism identification and drug
delivery).

  This early attemptt at classification is  using information in
reports collected here:
  Nanotechnology Industry - Most practical near-term applications
  http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=302498
  
  


E)  I conclude (so far) that at this time there is only one product
class on the market  which truly uses  nanotechnology and has economic
significance.

  That class is consumer electronics - products which use chips.

 I  will no concentrate on this class -- in agreement with agrees with:
    
    
" ..Find past uses of nanotechnology and nanomaterials prior to May 2004
    in commercial products that are electronics, devices, computers,
    machines, and other such commercial products you may find (there might
    be something related) .."
    
    I will not try to list all devices which have chips: mobiles
calculators, microwaves,..room thermostats, watches, ..  almost
everythingng has a chips inside, these days.
Instead I will concentratete on important connection between
micro-electronics and nanotechnology--- how chips are made and what
they look like.
	- Here, Jane, you should  guide me in RFCs by requesting more or less
technical level and details.
	
   In some sense, whole nanotechnology idea is extrapolation of the
path which microelectronics traveled and which is described by the
Moore law. So, let's start with that:
     
    What is    Moore Law 
	
	
	  Extending Moore's Law
	http://www.nano.gov/html/facts/Moores_Law.htm
	  
	
Transcending Moore's Law with Molecular Electronics and Nanotechnology
	
 
http://www.kurzweilai.net/meme/frame.html?main=/articles/art0618.html?

    
  Brie History of chip making (includes lithography) 
    
     Let's Get Small: The Shrinking World of Microelectronics
        Transistors Launch the Computer Revolution
        Chips, Anyone?
	Nanotechnology
 http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/exhibit/exhibit.php?id=159270&lid=1   
    
    How does chip looks:
      	Photo micrography captures intricate circuit lines 
	hundred of times smaller than a human hair.
    
  http://webmedia.national.com/gallery/02/02_rgb.jpg  
    
  
  How do they make them?
  
    National's wafer fabrication facility in South Portland, Maine,
     houses the latest sub-micron manufacturing equipment.
      Containers in foreground, called pods, protect wafers from dust particles.
    
     http://webmedia.national.com/gallery/05/05_rgb.jpg

 All this is taken from   
    
http://www.national.com/company/pressroom/gallery/manufacturing.html

 

 F)  In conclusion 
 
   Since this is a first phase only, posted to give you chance to
intervene, it is less organized than
   a final report would be. It requireses looking at the links,
evaluating them, and pursuing some of the leads.
   
   I see two different concept of nanotechnology. The original
meaning, introduced by Feynman,
   which really meant a very small assembly -things called  MEMS and NEMS today.
   Second  meaning, which seems to dominate much of writing and
emerging applications today are nanomaterials.
   
   I will now present an opinion, an expert opinion (from point of
view of material science
   http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=419211
   ) but one with which people, even experts in this and other fields,
may disagree.
   
   and I will also ask few questions.
    Answers will help me to finish the second phase of the search on
the right technical level.
 
 
 Opinion:  The nanomaterial is an ill defined concept. 
           Materials do not have  size.  
	   Objects have : Size, shape, material, and perhaps surface
properties (paint ..) and these are complementary.
   
   Material has a scale of inhomogeneity only.
    Let's elaborate this important concept:  Material (by definition)
is homogeneous meaning - same everywhere
     
   Let's consider paper, wood, particle-board, metal alloy ... for a moment: 
   These are all materials, they do not have size, but they have a
scale at which they exhibit structure:
   For wood it is very random and on order of cm (centi-meters)
(knots) and mm (tree rings)
   
   Question: Are you familiar and comfortable with SI units and
Scientific notation ,, 3e-7 m  etc?
   
   For particle board non-homogenity is visible by naked eye, more
uniform but still random,
   
   Paper  is made if fibers, about 100 E-6m long, not visible to the
naked eye, but visible under electron microscope
   
   and so on, on still smaller scale, is true for metals, wchich are
made of grains of tiny crystals .
   
    So, what is a nanomaterial ? Material made from nanoparticles?
homogeneous to a sale of e-9m ?
    
    Question:  How big are atoms, molecules?
    
    Usually by nanomaterials people mean exotic molecules, like
Bucky-balls - but making exotic molecules, unless the
    are assembled atom by atom, using some manipulators - is that not
just complex chemistry?
    
    Question: Did you  read Drexler's book ?
    
    
    
 Engines of Creation: The Coming Era of Nanotechnology by Eric K.
Drexler. The entire text of the book, which deals with nanotechnology
and its possibilities. A must read for everybody!

http://www.foresight.org/EOC/index.html

  I just found it, on line, so I will read it now. Perhaps it will
convince me that there is such a thing as nanomaterial
  
  
  Hedgie



http://www.nanoinvestornews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=808

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 31 Mar 2005 07:25 PST
Jane, here is the second phase of the answer, after I had chance to
follow the links, tie up loose ends and time to organize the results.

The question is :

	" Find commercial products that are electronics, devices, computers,	
	machines, and related products, made using nanotechnology and/or
	nanomaterials prior to May 2004.  By commercial products I mean
         products available to the public for purchase prior to May 2004,..
...
	I am most interested in information on commercial products that might
	have been purchased by an ordinary person prior to May 2004 ...
	
	We are excluding some product categories, e.g. sensors, .. 
       and also products  not   
        "large enough to be seen by the unaided human eye and so on".
  
     "We are looking  for consumer products 
      ( products which could be purchased by an ordinary person)
  which have
    "nanotechnology or nanomaterial used in each product" 
    
     
 The question can be interpreted in two ways, elaborated below as (A) and (B).
 
 (A) consumer products which have components or materials which were
 produced by, or with the benefit of, nanotechnology.
 
  or
  
 (B)  components and materials  which are produced by nanotechnology companies
        and later used in consumer products.

This ambiguity applies both to what we are looking for and to what we
are excluding. Thus, we are excluding either  
	(A) certain end-products  (e.g.those used for Homeland defense) 
     or (B) certain components (e.g.sensors)
        or those end-products which contain certain types of components
 
  
  Let's illustrate this with examples of existing products:

 ---------  Example product: 1) camera

  Precise camera-shake compensation at every angle
   VR (Vibration Reduction) System
  http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/portfolio/technology_e/vr_e/
  
   The end product is a camera which takes pictures which are not
blurred from camera shake.
   
  COMPONENTS are
  
  sensors (accelerometers)
  micro-motors (MEMS)
  electronic Integrated Circuits (ICs or chips)
  materials (plastics (polymers), lenses, sfrom pecial glass, coatings  
   etc
  
  
  Consumer product manufacturers, like Ford, or (in this case) Nikon
  assemble components  made by different companies (suppliers or OEMs)
  which are often unknown to the public.
  
----------  Example product 2 -  Athlon CPU
   
   the 'chip manufacturer'. Company  AMD just announced :
  
  	"..achieving a smooth transition to 90 nanometer (nm) manufacturing
and has shipped low-power 90nm Mobile processors for thin and light
notebooks.."
  http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~89449,00.html
 
  In this example, a chip with 90 nm thick connections between
transistors of an IC  has to be classified as a product of
nanotechnology - but the buyer of a notebook with Athlon CPU chip will
be often unaware of the brand of his CPU chip or even the AMD name.."
   
  --------- end of product examples.
   
So,   
Product 1) a camera,  can  be included, since it can be purchased by
normal persons and is visible, and contains nano-sensors and micro or
nanomotors (according to interpretation A).
or it can be excluded, since the nano components include sensors which
are excluded(according to interpretation B)
  
Product 2) can be included, as part of a Laptop, or excluded - since
the normal person has no idea that there is an  Athlon CPU in his
purchase. He did not buy a CPU (a component) but a laptop
(end-product).
  
So,

 QUESTION  according to the stricter, narrower interpretation B 
 ========================================================
     "List all  nanotechnology consumer products" , but exclude some,
such as sensors ...
     
        Answer:  NONE
                 List is empty.
     
     The categories of the CONSUMER products and NANOTECHNOLOGY
products do not intersect.
     Meaning: there are no nanotechnology products sold directly to consumers.
     
     Consumer products benefit indirectly from nanotechnology, through
better components and materials.
     On the consumer scene, there is no revolution, but there are
small improvements in existing CONSUMER products.

 Case studies in Lux Research Report quantify who will capture value
from nanotech in consumer products"

"First-generation consumer products incorporating nanotechnology are
already on the market. They show price premiums of 11%, on average,
over conventional products...."

http://www.nanoinvestornews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4173

It is in this sense that the Nikon Camera, with VR lenses would be
excluded, since, with the exception of a few components (ICs, motors,
coating, sensors) it is just a good old camera, not a nano-camera.
 
   QUESTION  in the broader sense A:
  ======================= ==========
  "List  consumer products which contain nano-components and materials,
   even when those components as consumer products in themselves are    
   excluded."
  
 It is in this sense that the Nikon Camera, with VR lenses would be included.
    
    Answer:

   NANOTECHNOLOGY PRODUCTS
  =========================
   
The nanotechnology industry has produced  5 categories of "products,"
that is actual products, pseudo-products and by-products:

1) reports: Intellectual property (patents) and knowhow 
2) laboratory supplies
3) components
4) advanced materials
    and finally
5) safety and environmental impact reports, regulations, commentaries,
popularisations, PR releases  and studies.
-- this special category (5) employs quite a number of people:
scientists, bureaucrats, writers and even artists.

	Issues
	http://www.physorg.com/news3409.html

	Regulation and oversight
	http://www.nano.gov/
	http://www.fda.gov/nanotechnology/

	popular art:	  
	In the Grey Goos comic, a group of "nanobots" dubbed "Grey Goos" have
escaped from the National Transistor Assembly Labs. Each with a
different technical specialty and a distinct personality, they end up
in a New York City loft with Dorothea (Dot) Kalm and Globo Bill, a
couple of "constructs" who also have escaped from the same lab.
         Akokolipstik and the Grey Goos exclusively at NanoApex
about:
 	 http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=08366
example of the comic strip: 
  	http://www.nanoinvestornews.com/goo.php
  
	
  In this answer to the question, using the broader interpretation A,
we are  still excluding medical products and nanomaterials (which may
be covered by  another separate question). I now will list products
which contain item #3, namely components produced by nanotechnology.
  
  All consumer electronics products are then on the list.
  All these  products use  nanotechnology produced components:
  
The list includes: 
   stereos, televisions, video, CDs, and DVD players, recordrs,
cameras, mobiles .. See
 
http://www.hoovers.com/consumer-electronics/--HICID__1171--/free-ind-factsheet.xhtml


In more detail, a more extensive list is here: 
 Categories of Consumer Electronics

http://www.ec51.com/suppliers-factory/Consumer_Electronics.html


 All these consumer products contain, as components ICs, chips --that is, 
 micro-electronic components, and lately nano-electronic components.
 The latter, for several years now, have been produced by nanotechnology.
 
 DATING the use of nano-components:
 
 The detail description of this industry, its history, and how it stepped from
 the micro to the nano range was described in the first phase of the answer.
 This will give you the dates you are looking for.
 
 So, in conclusion, the answer is: (almost) all consumer products fit
your criteria, or none, depending on how we interpret the question.
 

 ADDTIONAL REFERENCES 
 You may find the following helpful in pursuing the science behind the
hype:

 The notion of scale
  
     Powers of ten : 
     What is it?
     http://www.wordwizz.com/pwrsof10.htm
     Good example
     http://www.people.virginia.edu/~rjh9u/power0.html
     list of similar scales 
     http://www.vendian.org/envelope/dir0/scales.html
     
   Scientific Notation and SI units
        (necessary to avoid ugly phrases like 
           'one billionth of thickness of a hair ')   
    http://www.visionlearning.com/library/module_viewer.php?mid=47   
    
      How big are atoms?
                       100-200 pm (pico meters)
   http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/atomrad.html#c1
 
  Next step: How big are molecules:
     TBA (To be answered) - in eventual next question on nano-materials?   
  
     
 Nano-materials defined -- described by  fig 4.4.
================================================== 

     At the end of  phase 1 of this answer I asked
       
       "How do nano-materials differ  from normal materials?" 
       
   All materials have a scale of features, which range  from visble features
  (such as particles in particle board), all the way to molecular and
  then to atomic  features. The atomic features  are sub-nanoscopic -
  measured in pm , in picometers) and. of course, invisible to the naked eye.
     
     What makes nano-materials different?
     
 I have found an answer to that in this comprehensive report by The
Royal Society DATE: 2003.
     It may be it may be useful in formulating your next question, and
so I will include an answer here as a bonus:
     
      Between  materials with features on the scale of microns
(produced by micromachining, litography ..) and materials with
pico-scopic features (on scale of pico-meters) produced by chemical
methods, there is a challenging gap : materials with controled
features in between these scales (pico and micro meters). Today. such
materials are today hard to produce.
      
      In the  report I mention above, please, read (at minimum):  
      
           chapter 2 - intro, particularly on the  beginning, the 
chart of these scales
           chapter 9 - Conclusions,  applications and concerns
	
	and particularly:  Chapter 4
 
Report is here:
  http://www.nanotec.org.uk/finalReport.htm   
     
Chapter 4, which explains:
  TOP down and Bottom-up technologies
  and  Fig 4.4 page 5.6. of chapter 4 of this report
are here:       
   http://www.nanotec.org.uk/report/chapter4.pdf

The figure  depicts this gap and the technologies which are conquering
the gap in human capabilites from the bottom (chemistry) and from the
top(micro-machining)
 
  Here are more detailed review of the  TOP DOWN  methods 
http://www.csa.com/hottopics/mems/overview.php

  and of the BOTTOM UP  methods for control of feature size,
 http://www.csa.com/hottopics/nano/overview.often


 Additional information may be found in copyrighted and (overly) expensive
  Paid resources ( though often available with a free trial)
 -----------------------------------------

The report case studies identify 43 nanotech innovations across the
three product categories studied, and quantify the impact of 15 key
innovations in terms of net value captured by suppliers,
manufacturers, customers, and other parties in the products  value
chains...
http://www.nanoinvestornews.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=4173
from
http://www.nanoinvestornews.com/goo.php
from
http://www.nanoapex.com/   (premium site for nantotech)


Nanoparticle Industry Review  (Pub Time: 2004/03)  $ 2250.00 (Hard Copy)
multiple vendors:
http://www.bccresearch.com/advmat/DFP03.html
http://www.the-infoshop.com/study/bc18380_nanoparticle_industry_toc.html
http://www.rfreitas.com/Nano/ProgressMNT2001.htm

I hope I have exhausted the question (though possibly the reader, as
well; certainly the researcher), however, feel free to post an RFC if
anything is not clear, before you rate this answer.

Hedgie

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 02 Apr 2005 09:10 PST
Hi Hedgie,

I appreciate your work and the benefit of your knowledge and research
skills.  It seems that this got  caught in semantics and left a
crucial part of my question unanswered.


My definition of nanomaterial is a standard one, except for the
dimension measuring up to about 1000 nm. or 1 micron.

Nanomaterial:

The term nanomaterial refers to materials that have at least one
dimension measuring up to about 1000 nm (1 micron).  Nanomaterials
also refer to materials, structures, devices, machines or systems of
any size that are partially or entirely made, fabricated, engineered
or designed using nanotechnology.  They are partially or entirely
made, fabricated, engineered or designed on an atomic or molecular
scale, atom by atom, molecule by molecule, or with atomic or molecular
scale precision, such as by process(es) which might be called
molecular nanotechnology, molecular manufacturing, nanomanipulation,
nanofabrication, submicron manufacturing or sub-micron manufacturing,
submicron technology or sub-micron technology, bottom-up
manufacturing, top-down manufacturing, and/or self assembly.  A
nanomaterial might be nanosize or macroscopic.

Materials made using ?bulk technology? are not part of this
definition.  In bulk technology atoms and molecules are manipulated in
bulk, (rather than individually or one by one).  Examples of products
made using bulk technology are conventional paper and conventional
metal (even though these two materials are made of nanoscale parts,
they were processed in bulk).

One question I prepared to send you after your initial reply was if
you could help me list  other materials made of nanosize parts, which
are conventionally manufactured into products using bulk technology,
like paper and metal.  I think that all cellulose materials are
nanoscale, right?  Wood, cotton, linen, hemp, flax, other cellulose
fibers?..?  Isn?t clay nanoscale? Is silk nanoscale?  Are there other
examples or categories of examples?

--------------------------------------

My question needs to be addressed according to your broader
interpretation.  Here is a more specific answer.

You mentioned that ordinary consumers are not aware that the product
they purchase is made with nanotechnology or nanomaterials.  I agree
but this makes no difference, it does not affect my question or the
answer.

In response to your question about these categories: 
 
 (A) consumer products which have components or materials which were
produced by, or with the benefit of, nanotechnology.
   and
 
(B)  components and materials  which are produced by nanotechnology companies
        and later used in consumer products.

This ambiguity applies both to what we are looking for and to what we
are excluding. Thus, we are excluding either  

(A) certain end-products  (e.g.those used for Homeland defense), or 

(B) certain components (e.g.sensors) or those end-products which
contain certain types of components


Consumer products in your category (A) which also fit into my list of
products included in your search, need to be part of the search.  I
need information on them.  I understand that their use of
nanotechnology is often just in a part or component and the normal
purchaser is rarely aware of it.

I only need information on the components and materials in your
category (B) if they are actually in an end product that is on my list
of products included in your search.  Ordinary people who are not in
technical or scientific professions are not the ones buying the
components in your category (B) and making them into the electronic
and computer products included in your search.

If a product is on my list of products included in your search, but it
contains nanotech parts or components not on this list of products
included in your search, that product is  included in your search
because it is the product being purchased prior to May 2004.  Though
its nanotech part is not on this list, this part is not the ?product?
being purchased.

------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the unresolved portion of the question.

You wrote:

?The list includes: 
   stereos, televisions, video, CDs, and DVD players, recordrs,
cameras, mobiles .. See
 
http://www.hoovers.com/consumer-electronics/--HICID__1171--/free-ind-factsheet.xhtml


In more detail, a more extensive list is here: 
 Categories of Consumer Electronics

http://www.ec51.com/suppliers-factory/Consumer_Electronics.html


 All these consumer products contain, as components ICs, chips --that is, 
 micro-electronic components, and lately nano-electronic components.
 The latter, for several years now, have been produced by nanotechnology.?

My question requires categorizing these products much more carefully.   

What is the broadest category of consumer products that fit the
specifications in my question and how can it be subdivided, even if
all of the subdivisions are not identified?

From the initial part of your reply, it seemed like the broadest
category was computer chips.  Now, the broadest category seems to have
expanded.  If micro-electronic components are made with nanotechnology
and/or nanomaterials, it seems like the broadest category is:

electronic products with micro- electric and/or nano-electric
components, such as integrated circuits, computer chips and other
electronic products listed at the hyperlinks you provided.

How can this category or the broadest category (if this one is
incorrect) be subdivided?

Can major uses and other specific uses of nanomaterials and/or
nanotechnology in the products in this very broad category be
identified?  I think they can.  Can some of these be distinguished
from the same or similar uses of nanomaterials and/or nanotechnology
today?  I think they can.

It seems like the hyperlinks you provided offer possible ways to
subdivide the broad category of products, but I am very clear about
this.  Would one subcategory be something like:

electronics made using lithography, 

and another be something like: 

electronics made using micromachining processes like surface
micromachining, micromolding, ?..????.

Would electronics made using microelectromechanical systems (MEMS)
that employs nanotechnology (up to 1000 nm) be a category?

As I am sure you recognize by now, I cannot really follow the articles
that go into these technologies.

I also need to know if there are other ways of subdividing the broad
category of products above.  It seems like this article you provided:

www.csa.com/hottopics/mems/overview.php

offers some answers but I cannot really follow the description of the
technology to figure out the subcategories myself.

This page would not open for me:

http://www.csa.com/hottopics/nano/overview.often

Can we find a way to distinguish some subcategories of the
nanotechnology and nanomaterials used in products included in this
search from the more advanced nanotechnology and nanomaterials used in
these same kinds of products after May 2004?

This information, the finding of categories of products that fit the
criteria of the search is extremely important to the project that I am
working on.

For the other question I am figuring out, I am going to need similar
information and categorization of information about the use of
nanomaterials and/or nanotechnology but the realm of investigation is
coatings, pigments, paints, binders, and photography.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just found this at  www.thinkdigit.com/connect/technologynext/stories/39993.html 

quote from ?Be with you in a nano? by A. Patrick dated November 2001

?Nanocomputers

As of now, Nanotechnology is focusing on projects which can be
implemented in bettering our lives. Pervasive computing is an area
where a lot of Nanotechnology projects are currently active. For
example, if you want to design a chip to fit into your fingertip for
controlling a music system, then the solution lies with
Nanotechnology.

While making a microprocessor, we handle big groups of semiconductor
molecules and structure them into the form we need. This form of
handling of matter produces severe limitations as to how small these
circuits can be made. Present day lithographic technologies (used in
the latest desktop processors) are at 0.13 microns. After the
0.13-micron limit, it is very difficult to etch the circuits precisely
and effectively on the silicon substrate. This is where Nanotechnology
steps in. Whether it is a matter of using DNA for computing or
arranging semiconductor atoms to form logic circuits, Nanotechnology
offers convenience hitherto unknown to bulk technology (most of
today's technology can be termed as 'bulk technology' as it involves
manipulation of atoms and molecules in bulk rather than one by one).

Computing giant IBM has come up with a new kind of memory called
'Millipede technology', which makes use of an array of AFM probes to
make marks on a polymer surface for storing data. Each tip writes a
'bit' of 50 nanometer on the polymer which stores the data. Reading
and erasing of data is also done by the same arrays. Today's best
storage devices are capable of a memory capacity of 2 gigabits per
square centimetre, whereas this technology has made possible densities
up to 80 gigabits per square centimetre using a single AFM tip. This
is about 40 times greater than the memory densities available now.
These devices are not so far away either. One of the first steps in
this direction was the Microdrive from IBM, which has 1 GB memory
capacity in a matchbox-sized drive. Big Blue's next step is to make
gigabyte drives as tiny as one square centimetre. This means that
music aficionados can store their entire music collection on something
the size of a watch a few years from now. There are also plans to
build a smart version of Millipede. This will have electronics coupled
to the Microdrive so that the whole package can act as an independent
system on a chip.

That was just the tip of the iceberg. Molecular switches and
transistors were first developed in 1998. These breakthroughs are
showing a path on which a completely new kind of computer architecture
is being developed. This approach makes use of objects called Quantum
dots for their operation. (See Box: Quantum dot cell operation for
more information on this new architecture.)

The main advantage of using approaches such as the Quantum dot cell,
other than the small sizes, is the power consumption. In an era where
we are strapped for power, nano-powered devices will be a big help as
they consume next to nothing in terms of power.?

---------------------------

I wanted to send you a reply quickly rather than wait until after I
review all of your hyper links.  Thank you Hedgie!

Best regards, 

Jane

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 02 Apr 2005 21:30 PST
Jane, thank you for opportunity to clarify (and perhaps emphasize)
 some parts of my answer.

   Quote "  my definition of nanomaterial is a standard one ..
   nanomaterial refers to materials that have at least one
   dimension measuring up to about 1000 nm (1 micron) .."
   
 Jane, Materials do not have dimensions.
   They may have features of certain size.
   You cannot say 'wood measures 3m' -
   You can only say:  'piece of wood measuring 3m' 
   Wood is a material. Piece of wood, or board, or 2by4  are objects. OK?  
   Most materials have structure on several different scales, often
ranging from microns down to the atomic scale. Kindly do review the
'power of ten' links I have provided. There is so much junk published
on the web, that we cannot waste time arguing about all popular
articles, which use ill-defined terms and nonsense definitions.
   Indeed:
   Words" materials with .. dimension measuring up to about 1000 nm (1
micron)..." do not mean anything. Every (well almost) material
contains atoms. Atoms surely have size smaller then micron. So are 
all materials nanomaterials? I recommend to differentiate between
words 'dimension' and  words 'size or scale'. Dimensions of space are
width, height and depth.
 Did you studied and understood Fig.. 4.4 I described previously?
      
   Quote from the "Standard definition"
   " Nanomaterials also refer to materials, structures, devices,
machines or systems of any size .."

  Comment:
      No. Nanomaterials are materials.  Devices, machines or systems of
any size ...  are objects. Objects are made from materials but are not
materials. Materials are not objects. It is an abstract aspect of many
objects and subject of study of the material science. You cannot
hijack it.

 Quote:
" One question I prepared to send you after your initial reply was if
you could help me list  other materials made of nanosize parts, which
are conventionally manufactured into products using bulk technology,
like paper and metal.  I think that all cellulose materials are
nanoscale, right?  Wood, cotton, linen, hemp, flax, other cellulose
fibers?..?  Isn?t clay nanoscale? Is silk nanoscale?"

 Answer:  I recommend you stick with original plan, to make all issue
concerning materials a separate question(s).
  Natural polymers, cellulose, are not nanomaterials. 
 I am not sure what 'is nanoscale' means but to question:
 I think that all cellulose materials are nanoscale, right?
 Answer is no. Most natural materials (wood) have some  nanoscale
structures but that does not make them nanomaterials. You really need
to study that report of the Royal society. It is intended for general
public and it does
explain what nanomaterial is.
      
    RFC: 
   "This page would not open for me: 

http://www.csa.com/hottopics/nano/overview.often  "

 Clarification:  
      It should be

http://www.csa.com/hottopics/nano/overview       
       
       Sorry about that.
     
   
Comments on: Be with you in a nano? by A. Patrick dated November 2001
(BTW it is enough to give link, 
you do not need to paste in whole copyrighted article into the RFC). 

 Quote 
 "if you want to design a chip to fit into your fingertip for
 controlling a music system, then the solution lies with
 Nanotechnology..."

Comment:
   No. Design of a  the chip is basically independent of the
fabrication (or 'fab') method. Micro-chips process music and fit on a
fingertips since 70ties.
   Chips of 2001 already fit on the fingertip and are already a
nanotechnology products. Trace size   of 0.13-micron   is sub-micron
(it is 130 nanometers and micron is 1000 nm) Chips of today (see AMD
PR I quoted) have trace size 90 nm.
You may choose to focuse on that, on evolution of fab tech, in
accordance with the Moore law. That in iteself is a big topic, a
discipline which can generate more then one $100 question. Please, do
not try to include that into this question, but consider that option.
It may be what you are after. Different types of chips (CPUs,
memory,analog, DSPs ..) progress at different rate along th Moore's
universal curve.
   
    question:
 How can this category or the broadest category (if this one is
incorrect) be subdivided?

   Clarification of answer:
   
     Broadest category [which fits your question] is : Consumer Electronics.
     
     All these product contain integrated circuits aka chips, which
today are made by nanotechnological methods.
       
    
    RFC    
  Can we find a way to distinguish some subcategories of the
nanotechnology and nanomaterials ..   
    
 Clarification:
   Leaving the large topic of nanomaterials to the next question, it
should be now possible to focus on the nano components of the consumer
products 'made with nanotech', that is on the chips. These can be
categorized (by several criteria, method of manufacture etc, or
'technology' MOS, MOSFET,.. or function (CPU, memory, DPL, programable
logic arrays..).
   That is different from classifying the consumer products which use
chips, according to their functions (recorders, kitchen appliances)
       Which classification you want?  That - the focus of the report - seems
to me to be essential result og the question, which may allow you to post more
focused question.
   
   But there are thousands of different chips, made by thousands of processes.
    We have to realistic, and not to attempt to include other broad questions:
   "how chips are made, what types they are, what their function is .." into
    this question, which was "What consumer products use nanotech".     
     
    You said in the initial dialog that you are ready to answer any questions.

   I did ask 'what is a size of a molecule?' for a reason.
   Not that I do not know, but because I need to know what you know,
   what to explain and on which level to proceed.
  
   Please, do read all the links and answer ALL the questions before we proceed. 
   
   And so, here are two more questions - or repeat of some questions:
   
   Q1: The nikon camera with VR contains sensors. Is it therefore excluded?
   Q2: Flashlight can be used for Homeland Defense 
(e.g. to illuminate some dark corner in which a terrorist could be
hiding). It may contain battery made with a nanomaterials.
   Are all batteries, all flashlights, all finepowders use to make
batteries, excluded?
     
    Hedgie

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 08 Apr 2005 08:35 PDT
Hi Hedgie,

It has taken me a while to get back to you, I apologize.  I have been
inundated with work.  It is unfortunately a very pressured situation,
which will be ameliorated by the answer I hope to get from your
research.

Thank you for pointing out the error in my definition of nanomaterial.
 Here is the edited version.  I hope I got it right now.

Nanomaterial:

The term nanomaterial refers to materials with physical phenomena,
structural features, and/or construct structures that have at least
one
dimension measuring in the range from about 0.1 nm up to about 1000 nm
(1 micron), a characteristic referred to as nanoscale.  Nanomaterials
also refer to materials, structures, devices, machines or systems of
any size that are partially or entirely made, fabricated, engineered
or designed using nanotechnology.  They are partially or entirely
made, fabricated, engineered or designed on an atomic or molecular
scale, atom by atom, molecule by molecule, or with atomic or molecular
scale precision, such as by process(es) which might be called
molecular nanotechnology, molecular manufacturing, nanomanipulation,
nanofabrication, submicron manufacturing or sub-micron manufacturing,
submicron technology or sub-micron technology, bottom-up
manufacturing, top-down manufacturing, and/or self assembly.  A
nanomaterial might be nanosize or macroscopic.

Materials made using ?bulk technology? are not part of this
definition.  In bulk technology atoms and molecules are manipulated in
bulk, (rather than individually or one by one).  Examples of products
made using bulk technology are conventional paper and conventional
metal.


In answer to your other questions:
Q1: The nikon camera with VR contains sensors. Is it therefore excluded?

The Nikon camera should be included

 Q2: Flashlight can be used for Homeland Defense 
(e.g. to illuminate some dark corner in which a terrorist could be
hiding). It may contain battery made with a nanomaterials.
   Are all batteries, all flashlights, all finepowders use to make
batteries, excluded?

All batteries are included because they can easily be used to power an
electronic product on the included list.  Finepowders are included if
they are in batteries in electronic products that are on the included
list.


It is extremely important that a way of characterizing the use of
nanotechnology and nanomaterials in the electronic products on the
included list made before May 2004 is found and that these uses of
nanotechnology can be clearly identified.


Uses of nanotechnology and/or nanomaterials prior to May 2004 need to
be categorized by their distinctive identifiable characteristics. 
They need to be clearly distinguished from chips made from May 2004 to
the present and from chips that will be made in the future (e.g., the
ones that are lab experiments now or components in development now). 
May be it would help to consider characteristics like: the presence or
absence of silicon, carbon nanotubes, other nanotubes, quantum dots,
polymer or organic electronics, inorganic organic hybrid electronics,
nanowires, and/or wires that are not nanoscale in chips as a way to
distinguish chips made before May 2004 from those made from May 2004
on.  Maybe the use of lithography is a distinctive characteristic? 
Maybe the use of the chips in products that do not function by quantum
mechanics?? Or in products that function at certain speeds or in
products that have a certain capacity??  These are obviously total
guesses from someone who is not a science professional.

I guess the broad category is consumer electronic products with chips
made prior to May 2004.  Is there a finite list of kinds of chips? 
Chips are integrated circuits, memory, CPU, logic,  ???

Following this note you will find definitions of the words ?molecule?
and ?nanotechnology? from various dictionaries.  I rely on the
dictionary to define molecule, but rewrote my definition of
nanomaterial from the definitions of nanotechnology below.

You seem to be quite a bright man Hedgie, it makes me curious to know
how you use all your brain power in the rest of your professional life
but perhaps we are not supposed to ask this on this Google system.

Thank you!

Best regards,

Jane

------------------


Nanomaterials: Nanoscale materials; materials with structural features
(particle size or grain size, for example) of at least one dimension
in the range 1-100 nm.

Nanotechnology Areas of technology where dimensions and tolerances in
the range of 0.1nm to 100nm play a critical role
 
Nanotechnology. The application of science to developing new materials
and processes by manipulating molecular and atomic particles.

nanotechnology n : the branch of engineering that deals with things
smaller than 100 nanometers (especially with the manipulation of
individual molecules)

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

nanotechnology

n : the branch of engineering that deals with things smaller than 100
nanometers (especially with the manipulation of individual molecules)
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

 
Nanotechnology Any fabrication technology in which
 objects are designed and built by the specification and
 placement of individual atoms or molecules or where at least
 one dimension is on a scale of nanometers.

 The first unequivocal nanofabrication experiments took place
 in 1990, for example with the deposition of individual xenon
 atoms on a nickel substrate to spell the logo of a certain
 very large computer company.

 Nanotechnology has been a hot topic in the hacker subculture
 ever since the term was coined by K. Eric Drexler in his book
 "Engines of Creation", where he predicted that nanotechnology
 could give rise to replicating assemblers, permitting an
 exponential growth of productivity and personal wealth.

 See also nanobot.

(http://www.lucifer.com/~sean/Nano.html).
 (2003-05-02)
Source: The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing, © 1993-2004 Denis Howe


Source: Jargon File 4.2.0

Nanotechnology

Nanotechnology is the knowledge of the processes needed to make useful
things by controlling matter on the level of atoms and molecules. It
is accepted now that the upper boundary of size in this field is 100
nm.

http://www.medicalglossary.org/natural_sciences_nanotechnology_definitions.html
Nanotechnology The development and use of techniques to study physical
phenomena and construct structures in the nanoscale size range or
smaller.


http://www.smalltimes.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=3631

Nanotechnology: The creation and use of objects at the nanoscale, up
to 100 nanometers in size.

domain of scientific and technical endeavor in which solid matter is
manipulated in the molecular and atomic scale; processing of
functional, information carrying devices in the nanometer length scale
("nano" - 10-9; nanometer = 0.001 of a micrometer).

Nanotechnology Areas of technology where dimensions and tolerances in
the range of 0.1nm to 100nm play a critical role
-----------------------------------------------

molecule  n 1: (physics and chemistry) the simplest structural unit of
an element or compound 2: (nontechnical usage) a tiny piece of
anything [syn: atom, particle, corpuscle, mote, speck]
Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University
----------------------------------

mol·e·cule    n. 
	1.  	The smallest particle of a substance that retains the chemical
and physical properties of the substance and is composed of two or
more atoms; a group of like or different atoms held together by
chemical forces.
	2.  	 A small particle; a tiny bit.
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
----------------------------------

mol·e·cule (ml-kyl)   n. 
 The smallest particle into which an element or a compound can be
divided without changing its chemical and physical properties; a group
of atoms that is held together chemically.
 Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by
Houghton Mifflin Company.
----------------------------------

mol·e·cule      noun
: the smallest particle of a substance that retains all the properties
of the substance and is composed of one or more atoms
 Source: Merriam-Webster Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
----------------------------------

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 09 Apr 2005 07:33 PDT
Jane
    
 Thanks for the additional clarifications. 
 I now understand and can wrap up the answers to your questions.
 
  I will start from the end this time:        
 
 Q:   "You seem to be quite a bright man Hedgie, it makes me curious to know
how you use all your brain power in the rest of your professional life
but perhaps we are not supposed to ask this on this Google system."

    Hmm, interesting that you have decided "hedgie" is male. :-)

   All Google Answers (GA) researchers are experts in searching, 
   but quite  a few  also are professionals in some field, and do
   GA because they enjoy researching and answering interesting questions
   from their fields, sharing their knowledge, explaining things.
   The money is often just a part of our motivation. 
  
     There are some limits on what a researcher can say about himself/herself 
   - the little that I can say (and care say) about myself was
revealed e.g. here:
   http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=469241
 
 As you can see from the history of this (and similar questions on GA),
 understanding the motive and knowledge of the asker is often the most
challenging aspect of this job.

In questions like yours, which are inherently complex and can be
answered on many levels, gaging the level on which to answer is
a big part of the efort.

My conclusion is that in the original question, you were entering a
field far more complex than you imagined.  A bit like deciding to
write about how
children learn about time, and wandering into the question "What is
time?" and from there into the Theory of Relativity.  In the RFC
dialog I hope the complexity of the issue has been exposed and you now
have  a deeper understanding of the field as well as some pointers on
how to frame further questions you may have.

Well, back to business:

Q: Comment on your selection of the definition of material and molecule

    This, Jane, I consider the most important part of the answer.
    
    Be your report for publication or for a class, (I never figured that out)
    this is something the popular media and, even some textbooks get
wrong. However, it is crucial to proceed with a clear and sensible
definition.  If we bypass the confusion caused by the popular media,
the concept is not that  difficult:
    
    Materials vs objects
    --------------------
      
   Every author has certain choices of classification, of terminology, and so,
   of definitions. The line between simplification and over-simplification,
   between science and pseudoscience, is often blurred. 
   However, the reference I gave you on the 'Powers of 10' is essential for
   understanding the  concept of scale and  existence of different
structures on of materials end thre spread over different scales.
  
   
   Your corrected definition of a nanomaterial:  
        
"..also refer to materials, structures, devices, machines or systems of
any size that are partially or entirely made, fabricated, engineered
or designed using nanotechnology..."

   is better, but still not sufficiently accurate. Please refer back
to my previous clarification: Devices are objects. Objects are made
from materials, but are not materials.
    
    Ergo:
   
  ".. devices, machines or systems of any size that ..."  cannot be
considered materials.
  
  Also, most materials, almost all organic materials, have SOME
structures on a sub-micron scale.
   
   Very important: This does NOT make them "nanomaterials." 
                   -------------------------------------------
  
  There are two keys to understanding what is  'nano-material:
  
  KEY #1 SIZE of features (= scale of structure)
  1a) The features which are less then nm (nanometer) are atomic scale
- most materials have chemical compositions and so have structure in
sub-nano-scale. This structure can be manipulated by chemical methods.
  1b)  The features which are larger then a micron (micrometer) but
less then (let's say .1 mm = visibility by naked eye) are microscopic.
They can be manipulated by micro-machining, lithography, etc
  1c) The features in between - those from 1 nm to 1000nm - the
nanoscale structures are difficult to control and manipulate.

   It is in that gap that the challenge of nanomaterials lies.
   This gap is shown on that Fig 4.4 we discussed previously. 
   Gap is being attacked from the top and from the bottom es explained previously.
      
 KEY #2: CONTROL
  
  2a) Natural materials, including materials made from organic
materials (like paper) have nanoscale structures.
      They just are 'natural' -  meaning uncontrolled structures. 
       
 Paper is not a nano-material. It has such natural structures on nano-scale.
      
  Indeed, ever since "man discovered fire," she was able to produce
particles of nanoscopic dimensions.
 They are part of soot. 
  However, in soot, particle size  is uncontrolled.
 Some particles are 200 nm, some are 100 microns.
  Therefore, soot is not a nanomaterial.
      
      This is where the issue of the size of a molecule is critical:
      
      The dictionary definitions you picked are not  wrong -
      they are just insufficient. 
      
     " two or more atoms ..." 

     is not telling us anything about the size of the molecule.
     
     I did not ask 'what is a molecule' but  'What is THE SIZE OF a molecule'.
     
      Two atoms are certainly of sub-nano-scale -- indicating  a chemical process:
       
      Example:  Making a water molecule - which is H2O from  molecules
H2 and O2 involves not nano-technology, but chemistry. A process
called burning,
      or the  special case called an explosion, a very fast burning,
      - are these all chemical technology.
      
  What about making paper? Molecules here here are mostly cellulose.
 How big are those? Do the the molecules of cellulose have size on
scale of e-9m (nanometer) i.e.  e-6m (micron) or more?   How many
atoms do they have?
      
   This is a huge topic of great complexity: If you enter
    
   SEARCH TERM: molecular weight, cellulose
   
   into a search engine, you get a lot of references,  Example:
   
   ://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=molecular+weight+of+cellulose&spell=1
   
   I have selected this one link - on history of this important
subfield of the material science, a field called polymer science:
      
    http://www.chemheritage.org/EducationalServices/Polymers+People/MOLECULAR_GIANTS.html
    
    So,as you can read, people were able to manipulate large
molecules, and so structures on most scales, from e-6 to macroscopic
since 1930 .
 In some cases, e.g. color production in glass-making, since pre-histori times.
    
 The concept of a "nano-material" is less well defined than  a
"nano-device".   The definition given in the report of the Royal
society is good.
 It defines a nanomaterial as a material prepared by new methods, not
chemical, not micro machining, but by methods by which people can
control the structures in that gap - features on the scale scale
between 1 and 1000 nm.
    
    Please note that the term is "control," not just produce. Methods
of producing have been known for a long time. The new aspect is
control.If you control the process, you can produce any structure you
want.
  .................................................              
 Back to the main and original question:
 
   You and I have clarified, in our discussion, that there are no
nano-products sold directly to consumers. Only products which contain
nano-components are sold even today (to consumers).

   Some consumer products use nanomaterials, such as special paints.
coatings and dispersions, some conyan components produced by
nanotechnology.

   We have identified consumer electronics as the only product on the
CONSUMER market which contains COMPONENTS made by nanotechnology AS OF
May 2004 and fits ALL YOUR EXCLUSIONS.
   
   You say:
        "It is extremely important that a way of characterizing the use of
        nanotechnology and nanomaterials in the electronic products on the
        included list made before May 2004 is found and that these uses of
        nanotechnology can be clearly identified."
   
   I have already, in the answer and previous clarification identified the use
   of the nanotechnology to produce these components - components
commonly called chips.
   
   These components, namely integrated circuits (ICs), displays, sensors  ...
   
   are produced by 'sub-micron technologies' - by nanotechnology and
are essential part off all consumer electronic products.
  
   I have previously provided links to the classification of the
consumer electronics.
   
    So, I will now stop classifying products based on their end-use
and focus on the components themselves.

 How are the 'chips' classified?
     
     All components presently in commercial use,
     (as opposed to laboratory creations, like quantum dots) 
     can be considered ICs - Integrated Circuits or hybrids of ICs
with photonics or fluidics.
    
    Thus, we are now classifying integrated circuits  as final part of the answer:
              
   
    Classification of Integrated Circuits:

There are several ways to classify integrated circuits: by the
function, by fabrication technology, and - particularly important here
- by the size of features. The feature which is taken is criterion is
usually the thickness of a trace ( trace is sort of wire, connecting
components, such as transistors). Today, that size  is  .1 micron.
This places todays ICs into the realm of nano-devices.  Different
families of ICs crossed the 1 micron  line at different times, between
1995 and 2000.

  Most important is classification of integrated circuits is  by 'families'
  Each family has it's own Moore law curve, which makes the exact time
of  crossing of that 1 micron limit slightly different.

   These are the families:
   
TTL (Transistor-Transistor Logic), made of bipolar transistors.
 
CMOS (Complementary Metal Oxide Semiconductor) made from MOSFETs
 
ECL (Emitter Coupled Logic) for extremely high speeds
 
NMOS, PMOS for VLSI large scale integrated circuits. 

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electronic/iccomp.html

Here are additional classification links:

Manufacturing process and design classification
http://bwrc.eecs.berkeley.edu/IcBook/toc.pdf


 Derwent Classification System: Semiconductors and Electronic Circuitry

This includes semiconductor components per se, their manufacture and
circuitry. Circuits using electronic components are included, eg
filters and oscillators.

 More detailed classification:

http://www.thomsonscientific.com/support/patents/dwpiref/reftools/classification/dclassu.html

classification by fabrication method ( a book)
http://www.bookpool.com/sm/0130909963


                  Summary
                  
   The question (paraphrased) was "which nanotechnology products were
in hands of consumers as of May in the year 2004, with many
exclusions, such as health care products etc."
   
   We surveyed the trade show catalogs from that year and identified
Consumer Electronics as products which have components made  by
submicron technology as fitting the description.
   We clarified that no nanomaterials, nanodevices, nanocomponents as
such as sold directly to consumers. We cdetermined that only some
components are made by nanotechnology, components called chips, or,
more technicaly ICs.
   
   We classified  end-products, and then we classified the components.
   
   We provided links to image galleries, which illustrate how chips
are made, what they looked like, what the plant looks like, and
provided links on the history of manufacturing and of Moore law - all
that without getting too technical (as requested).
   
   As   a bonus, we added links which explain relevant facts about
materials science, structure of materials and polymer science,
provideing facts allow us to define and explain what is and is not  a
nanomaterial.
   
   
   The detailed questions, such as which chip or which material is in
which particular kind or even brand of product would require much
higher technical level and more details. There are thousands of
different chips on the market, and not all have submicron  features.
Such analysis for all consumer products would certainly exceed amount
of time a researcher can devote to a single question.
    
    If you would require such  details, you would have to post those
queries as new questions, and also limit the scope, from all products,
all chips to a particular IC family or a particular product, to keep
the  cost of such a research within the upper limit of $200 per
question.


Hedgie

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 09 Apr 2005 09:50 PDT
Hedgie,

I appreciate your prompt reply but this is a disaster. My question is
still not answered and the partial answer you have provided is not
sufficient to be useful at all.   I really need to know what the use
of nanotechnology and nanomaterials in electronic products dating
prior to May 2004 was.  Telling me that the answer is electronics is
not helpful, electronics was the category of the question.  Narrowing
this down to chips is a start.  Providing me with massive lists of all
chips is not helpful, I need specific info about the nanotechnology
used during the time period prior to May 2004, as opposed to chips
made from May 2004 on.  Explaining scientific principals is nice but
it is absolutely not what I need and it is not what I asked.  I am
working under an extreme time pressure.

The examples I provided in asking the question and clarifying it
indicate that I need to know more specific info about the use of
nanotehcnology in electronics prior to May 2004.  Here are quotes:

"Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.
Is this true and if so, can you provide more information on this, 
e.g, what kind of devices were made, what parts of them were 
nanoscale or nanomaterials?"

"Your Answer:

Please include the dates or the approximate dates that the commercial
products you find were available for the public to purchase and please
include how you know of this date.  Please note the size in nanometers
of the form or nanotechnology or nanomaterial used in each product you
find.  Please include all other information you know about each
product you find, but no need to search for additional product 
information.  Also, please cite all relevant sources that you find in 
your research, especially those you are relying on for your answer."

"Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.  Is this true and if so, what kind of devices
were made, what parts of them were nanoscale or nanomaterials?  If
this was used to make computers, would those have been the kind of
computers sold for people who are not scientists or technical
professionals to use or would they have been specialized computers for
medical use or space exploration?  Are these nanotech ?standard
lithography techniques? used for lots of different kinds of products?"

"As I mentioned, I need a thorough search done.  I do not need or
expect every commercial product found but I hope that you can find all
the categories of commercial products and all of the major examples
within each category.  I know you cannot guarantee to find ?all? but I
would like an exhaustive search done and a serious attempt to find all
which should enable you to find all categories and all major examples.

Here is a fictitious example that has no basis in fact.  If you find
that silicon nanowires were used to conduct electricity between parts
of computer chips in 2001 and there are tons of variations in their
design, provided all of the variations fit in to the category of
silicon nanowires used to conduct electricity between computer chips
parts in 2001, I do not need to know details of different variations
of these computer chips.  If a category of products can be narrowed
down further that is good, e.g., maybe the category is just silicon
nanowires used to conduct electricity between Intel brand computer
chips parts in 2001; or maybe the category is silicon nanowires used
to conduct electricity between certain specific kinds of parts in
computer chips in 2001.

In response to your comment:
2) With the computers - we really would include chip making only. Some
sub-micron methods were used prior to 2004. But we would not try to
list all consumer products which have chips. Would that be
satisfactory? Do you now what these microchips are?

Yes, I understand.  That would actually be great.  In your example
(which sounds real and not fictitious) the category would be something
like electronic products or devices made with microchips made prior to
may 2004 such as computers (maybe you can give one or two additional
kinds of product examples just to show the scope of the category). 
Then I need to know more specifically what the nanotechnology or
nanotechnologies used on the microchips prior to May 2004 was in order
to distinguish these microchips from other kinds made before and after
May 2004."

All of this was in the clarification of the quesiton.  I still need an answer! 

Jane

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 09 Apr 2005 13:50 PDT
Jane,
         You say in your last RFC
	 
	 "I need to know more specifically what the nanotechnology or
nanotechnologies used on the microchips prior to May 2004 was in order
to distinguish these microchips from other kinds made before and after
May 2004."

        But I already gave you references to the history of chip making:
	 
Did you study pages 25 to 35 in 
http://public.itrs.net/Files/2003ITRS/Home2003.htm

25 on lithografy, 26 on interconnects,
pages 61 to 65 on trends?

That report is quoted in the initial answer I gave you 
IT IS QUOTED IN:
       
          Extending Moore's Law
        http://www.nano.gov/html/facts/Moores_Law.htm
	
	
Here are those trends described on less technical level -
 also mentioned in the initial answer:	
              
  Brief History of chip making (includes lithography) 
    
     Let's Get Small: The Shrinking World of Microelectronics
        Transistors Launch the Computer Revolution
        Chips, Anyone?
        Nanotechnology
 http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/exhibit/exhibit.php?id=159270&lid=1  
 
 
 There you find 12 pages on how chips are made 
 http://www.intel.com/education/makingchips/
  page 5 expains litography, this page
 http://www.intel.com/education/makingchips/layers.htm
 ion implantation.
 Do you want more details on the process? All 250 steps?
 
 Time-lines - what changes happened when 

is described e.g. here 
 http://www.intel.com/technology/index.htm
 see report on the right:
 Platform 2015 Software, Moore's Law, and More 
 
 All this info is in the links I gave you in the initial answer.
 
 I mentioned AMD CPU made now - after 2004, 
 and Pentiums made before 2004.

 Changes  are gradual - light used has smaller and smaller vawelenth:
 
 Extreme Ultraviolet lithography is truly a technology breakthrough.
The 13.4 nm wavelength of this light is more than 10x shorter than
optical alternatives and will allow the patterning of lines below 50
nm dimensions
 http://www.intel.com/research/silicon/lithography.htm
 
 To see older technology, pick any of the older chips, e.g.:
 
 The Pentium 4 and the G4e: an Architectural Comparison: Part I

Introduction

 When the Pentium 4 hit the market in November of 2000, it was the
first major new x86 microarchitecture from Intel since the Pentium
Pro. In the years prior to the P4's launch the P6 core dominated the
market in its incarnations as the Pentium II and Pentium III, and
anyone who was..
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/p4andg4e.ars/1


Do you want more details?

Here, for comparison, are listed post 2004 chips:


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050314/175/fe7ty.html


 For example:
 
 Yonah, a dual-core processor for notebooks, will be the first
manufactured using a 65nm process, which Intel has said will make it
faster and more energy-efficient. Despite generating twice the power
of a single-core processor, its battery life will be similar to
current Dothan-based mobile processors, the firm claimed.
 
 In 2005 we have 90nm process  this are examples of the Moore law:
from 90 in 2005 to 65 in 2006 - -- I gave you those
 graphs.
 
 Chips being sold today do not use nano-wire. Signals travels on metalic traces:
 
 
Traces (Internal Trace Layer)

    Think of traces as roads that data travels on. The width and
curvature as well as the distance between affect both the speed and
reliability.

http://www.ahinc.com/hhmemory.htm


Here, for comparison are data on Intel Pentium processor from year 2003:

[PDF] Intel Pentium M Processor and Intel 855PM Chipset DDR 333/266/200 ...
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... Intel, Celeron, Pentium, and Intel Centrino, 
Trace Width. Inner layers: 4 mils. Outer layers: 5 mils. Trace to Space ratio ...
www.intel.com/design/mobile/desguide/25347902.pdf


" ..With pentium III the trace with was  from 180 to 350 nm
  Keep in mind that not all new Pentium III processors are based on
the new 0.18 micron core.  The Pentium IIIs that are designated as "B"
versions are based upon the older 0.25 micron "Katmai" core, even
though they are rated for a 133MHz front side bus speed .."
  
  
  Here is the complete history fro CPUs 
  
  table 
  
                  Process technology

shows developmement from INTEL 486 at 1 micron to pentium I at 500 nm
and beyond. It describes other changes as well.

http://www.mynet.com.sg/Knowledge/CPU 


Do you need more details - or more in-depth description of the precess changes?
 
 Hedgie

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 24 Apr 2005 16:54 PDT
Hedgie,

It has taken me a while to go through all of the info you provided. 
As you know, my question is still not answered.  Although you have
provided a lot of information related to the topic of my question, it 
does not specifically answer or even address my clearly stated
question.

At this point I have clearly stated my question multiple times, so I
will not repeat it again.  I want to give you examples of the problem
we are having and then I will go over the crucial, unanswered portion
of my question.

First, here is my response to your summary of your research on this question.

You wrote:
We surveyed the trade show catalogs from that year and identified
Consumer Electronics as products which have components made  by
submicron technology as fitting the description. We clarified that no
nanomaterials, nanodevices, nanocomponents as such as sold directly to
consumers.

Reply:
Please read the question again.  Consumer electronics with submicron
components was the realm for your research set forth in the question I
asked you.  It did not need to be identified by research!   Also, it
is plain common sense that consumers without technical or scientific
backgrounds (who are clearly described in my question) do not buy
electronic components and put them together into products.  They buy
products made with electronic components.  No research was necessary
to figure this out, it was in the question itself.

You wrote:
 We cdetermined that only some components are made by nanotechnology,
components called chips, or, more technicaly ICs.
   
Reply:
Thank you, this was progress, it was a start, but it is not nearly
enough information to be useful to me or to serve as a proper answer
to the question I posed.  My question is clear about the kind of data
I need on the nanotech items that were sold prior to May 2004.

You wrote:
   We classified  end-products, and then we classified the components.

Reply:
Massive lists of all electronics and massive lists of chips are not
useful at all.  They are a waste of time.  This question only focused
on certain electronics and certain chips ? made prior to May 2004 on
the list I wrote of included products, etc.

   
You wrote:
   We provided links to image galleries, which illustrate how chips
are made, what they looked like, what the plant looks like, and
provided links on the history of manufacturing and of Moore law - all
that without getting too technical (as requested).
   
   As   a bonus, we added links which explain relevant facts about
materials science, structure of materials and polymer science,
provideing facts allow us to define and explain what is and is not  a
nanomaterial.
   
Reply:
Thank you, I am impressed by your intellect and that is kind of you to
try to teach me about the overall subject.  But NONE of this work was
focused on answering the question I asked!  I asked for specific data.
 You got diverted with semantics and scientific theory and forgot the
question.

In the last response you sent me you wrote:

This information you gave in your reply:

?But I already gave you references to the history of chip making:      
Did you study pages 25 to 35 in 
http://public.itrs.net/Files/2003ITRS/Home2003.htm
25 on lithografy, 26 on interconnects,
pages 61 to 65 on trends??


Reply:
this is a 75 page document that describes what was thought in 2003
(two years ago) to be the future of semiconductors.  It is even titled
?Roadmap for Semiconductors 2003 Edition?  My question is about
finding the use of nanotechnology in consumer products sold prior to
May 2004.  This kind of reference is interesting but it is extremely
difficult to use to find answers to my question because it does not
describe specifically what was made prior to May 2004.  Though it is
very useful to distinguish what was made prior to May 2004 by
describing what was made after May 2004 and by describing what will be
made in the near future (from now April 2005), this 75 page document
is two years old so it cannot be a reliable source for this
information, e.g., I have no idea if the things it describes as being
on the roadmap for semiconductors in 2003 were actually made prior to
2004 or not, and if they were not made prior to May 2004, have they
been made yet and are they still on the roadmap?  This is a mess.

   
You wrote: 
?That report is quoted in the initial answer I gave you 
IT IS QUOTED IN:
                Extending Moore's Law
        http://www.nano.gov/html/facts/Moores_Law.htm

Reply:
My question is straightforward, please reply in a straightforward manner. 

You wrote:
?Brief History of chip making (includes lithography) 
    
     Let's Get Small: The Shrinking World of Microelectronics
        Transistors Launch the Computer Revolution
        Chips, Anyone?
        Nanotechnology
 http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/exhibit/exhibit.php?id=159270&lid=1  

Reply:
This is very nice, but there nothing in it that answers my question.
One paragraph near the end about MEMS but this does not in any way
answer my question.  I feel that you are sending me on a wild goose
chase to find lots of information related to my question but very
little that answers or even addresses my question.

You wrote:
Do you want more details on the process? All 250 steps?  

Reply
If there is a book or document or a handful of references describing
the nanotechnology used to make chips prior to May 2004 this would be
extremely useful (e.g., materials, processes, 250 steps or whatever,
would be great but do not send me references that are not useful in
directly answering my quesiton).


You refered me to the Intel website. Like the other info you have
provided, this Intel site is interesting but it seems to be giving
generalized info on how chips are made and ideas about the future
(e.g., the year 2015, lithography in the future, etc).  So how did
they use nanotechnology prior to May 2004, my question is not
answered.

Then you write:

?Extreme Ultraviolet lithography is truly a technology breakthrough.
The 13.4 nm wavelength of this light is more than 10x shorter than
optical alternatives and will allow the patterning of lines below 50
nm dimensions
 http://www.intel.com/research/silicon/lithography.htm?

Reply:
Great, Intel disclosed this after May 2004, not before and this is
targeted for production in 2009.


Please please read the question I asked and restated for you above.
Lets focus on the question I asked specifically and finally get this
issue resolved.  I am working under enormous pressure and would really
appreciate your help in finishing this up quickly.
I need data.  I appreciate  semantics, theory, ideas for future chips,
the history of a theory about transistors, and other intellectual
topics but I do not have the time for them now. I really need to get a
good answer for the specific question I asked.

You wrote:
To see older technology, pick any of the older chips, e.g.:
 The Pentium 4 and the G4e: an Architectural Comparison: Part I?

Reply:
The article comparing the Pentium 4 and G4e you sent me the hotlink for:
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/p4andg4e.ars/1
 is lengthy and does not discuss nanotechnology.  So it seems like it
does not address the question I asked and it is a waste of time.

This article you hotlinked is not there. 
?Here, for comparison, are listed post 2004 chips:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050314/175/fe7ty.html?

This document will not open:
http://www.mynet.com.sg/Knowledge/CPU

------------

I actually went to www.howstuffworks.com and found a hotlink to data
that is exactly what I am asking for in the question I gave you.  This
is a link to that information.
 
http://appzone.intel.com/pressroom/PrintPressRelease.asp?file=http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quickreffam.htm#IIIMobile

I now need this kind of information on chips by other manufacturers. 
Again, documents that describe these chips, how they are made, and/or
how nanotechnology is used in them would be valuable references on
this list.

These two lists are the data I need in the answer to my question:

List of Computer Chips Made with Nanotechnology Prior to May 2004 :
Chips by Intel at this website:
http://appzone.intel.com/pressroom/PrintPressRelease.asp?file=http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quickreffam.htm#IIIMobile

-- Motorola's MPC7450 (a.k.a. the G4e or G4+), which was new in 2001 
-- chips made with certain kinds of lithography????
Lets complete this list, or as complete as possible, that including
references to documents that describe the nanotechnology in these
chips.

Comparison to the future is useful. We should make a list of uses of
nanotechnology in chips made after May 2004 that is not in chips made
prior to May 2004.

List of nanotechnology that is not in chips made prior to May 2004,
that is in chips made after May 2004 or that will be in chips in the
future,:
-- chips made with 65 nm processes 
Does this mean that nothing in a chip was 90 nm or less before?
-- chips made with nanowire
-- chips made with carbon nanotubes or buckytubes, such as NRAM by
Nantero of Woburn MA (made with carbon nanotubes)
-- chips that do quantum computing
-- chips with superconducting nanocircuits
-- chips with quantum dots 
-- chips with quantum bits or qubits (e.g., I think some may have this
now so the future might be more than the few that may exist now , for
example, hundreds)
-- chips made using DNA and/or the self assembly capability of DNA
The following examples I am not sure about because I do not know if
memory is considered chips and I do not know if there might be
examples of general categories named below which were made and sold to
consumers prior to May 2004.
-- optoelectronic memory devices, such as those made using carbon nanotubes,
 -- ??? ferroelectric random access memory, FRAM, or memory made with
ferroelectric nanomaterials, such as ferroelectric nanodisks and/or
nanorods (refer to Nature, December 9, 2004, and to Fujitsu
Microelectronics America Inc.);
-- ??? magnetic RAM or MRAM, in which data is stored magnetically such
as spin-momentum magnetic memory cells (e.g., refer to work done a NVE
Corporation in Eden Prairie, Minn and refer to US Patent No.
6,744,086);
-- ??? ovonic memory, ovonic unified memory, or memory that records
data electrically onto thin films;
-- ??? molecular memory that reads and writes data by adding and
removing electrons off nanoscale molecules;
-- ??? hybrid devices that combine nanotechnology and MEMS, such as
IBM?s Millipede;
--??memory with three dimensional architectures in which data is
stored vertically in addition to or instead of horizontally;
--?? data storage made using germanium crystals or nanocrystals; 
--?? nanowire memory cells (e.g., in a transistor, for example, refer
to work done at University of Southern CA and NASA Ames Research
Center);
-- ??memory made using porphyrins (refer to Applied Nanotech in Austin, Texas); 
-- holographic memory; 
-- optical memory that stores photonic qubits, such as for use in all
optical computers etc. (refer to work done at NASA?s Jet Propulsion
Laboratory and to Physical Review Letters November 21, 2003);
-- nanomechanical memory such as that made from single-crystal silicon
wafers (refer to Badzey et al., 2004 Applied Physics Letters 85,
3587);
-- memory by ZettaCore of Denver, Colorado, at www.zettacore.com; 
-- A memory device, a FLASH memory device, circuits, or logic
circuits, made using nanocrystals, silicon nanocrystals, and/or
silicon-based self assembly.
-- Small memory devices that can store large quantities of data might
be made using molecules called rotaxanes, e.g., such as those made at
Hewlett-Packard?s Quantum Science Research Lab.

Also, I am concerned because after I replied affirmatively to your
question about whether batteries or cameras with nanomaterial
components would be included in the products of my question, you never
looked into this.  What made you think that nanomaterials were in
batteries and cameras prior to May 2004 and why did you not follow up
on this matter?  Also, what about displays?   I am concerned that
nanomaterials might have been used in displays like computer monitors
or televisions prior to May 2004.

At this point I need to get this resolve very quickly.  Time is very
short.  You seems very intelligent and most kind.  Please, lets focus
on getting this done.

Thank you,

Jane

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 24 Apr 2005 22:16 PDT
Jane,

1) In the initial dialog:

Request for Question Clarification by hedgie-ga on 26 Mar 2005 22:16 PST 

I listed several problems with your question: lack of clarity about
the technical level, scope, goal..

Under point 6 I said:

----------\

 6) The 'guiding' implies duration. Usually, a high price like yours
buys 5 to 8 hours of researcher's time - and dialog is made exclusively
via RFCs. Maybe hiring a free-lance researcher may be a better 
option for you (look at elance.com).

 I also suggested in the same initial dialog:

   So, I recommend this: expire this and post a new small and narrow
question - for about $20. You will educate yourself about the field,
its terminology  and how GA works. Then, in the second phase, you can
pose a more focused question if the process works for you.

----------/

I am not counting hours exactly, but I have already spent more than 20 hours
on answering your questions as they keep changing, arguing, growing,
and meandering through the wide landscape of electronic devices
technologies.

 The technologies you ask about in the latest RFC 

 ---chips made with 65 nm processes 
-- chips with superconducting nanocircuits
-- chips with quantum dots 
-- chips with quantum bits or qubits

etc, etc

 are, so far, only studied in laboratories. 
No such components are in consumer products as yet.
Such products are specifically excluded from your initial question.
 If you want to know about those, you just to have post another question.
=========================================================================


2) Even your evaluation of my work, done so far, is contradictory.
 In the last RFC you say:

" My question is straightforward, please reply in a straightforward manner"

and

"Thank you, I am impressed by your intellect and that is kind of you to
try to teach me about the overall subject.  But NONE of this work was
focused on answering the question I asked!"

and also:
 "You seems very intelligent and most kind.  Please, lets focus
on getting this done"

  Jane, my intelligence and patience and the time I can devote to this
has its limits and this is one reason why a limit has been reached.

  You do have an option to email the editors and ask  that my answer
to your question be deleted.

  Email address of editors  is    answers-editors@google.com. 

 If they do that, your money will be refunded and I will not get paid for my
 20+ hours of work. You may then repost this same  question and
another researcher may answer. (Of course, it is also possible that
none will be interested, for the reasons I explained.)
 
  You also have another option - and  I am recommending this one:

  Close this question, rate my work, and if you need more info, post
another question. In doing this, you can use all you have learned,
about nanotechnology and about  GA, to formulate a clear, narrow and
focused question which can be answered in few hours of research and
clarified with reasonable number of RFCs. I would also suggest you
avoid irrelevant distractions, such as discussing the researcher's IQ
in your RFCs - but that maybe that's just a personal preference.

3) To summarize the answer to your original question.

 During the year 2003, chip manufacturing technologies, following the
Moore law, crossed the 150 micron trace thickness.  Different
manufacturers, Intel, AMD, .. for different categories of chips,
crossed this 2003 line at somewhat different times, but this march of
chip generations is not widely scattered.

To stay competitive, all manufactorers need to keep step with evolving
technology and so answer:

  during the  year 2003 --- track thickness decreased under 150 microns 

 is a reasonable non-technical answer to your 'before - after' 2004 question.

On the specific example of Intel CPU chip  we have shown how
successive generations come every 1 to 2 years and how the trace
thickness of trace is decreasing. Thickness of trace is just a 
general indicator of the progress being made. There are many
associated improvements in relevant technologies.

One question which could be posted on GA would be to ask for list of
books on the (specified, specific) topic.
 The technical level of the texts, specialization, would have to be specified
and asker would have to bear in mind that most such books assume a PhD
educational level in physics and/or EE and their content cannot be
condensed into one GA answer presented on non-technical level.

Hedgie

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 24 Apr 2005 23:31 PDT
Hedgie, 

There is nothing unclear or contradictory about my question or about
any communication I have made to you.  A person can be very bright,
even brilliant and still be misdirected and unfocused.  You used your
time iefficiently and I feel badly that this happened but I still need
my question answered for the project I am under pressure to complete
now.  Your research has never focused on the question I asked and that
was your own choice, you elected to research topics related to my
question and not my question itself.  My question was clear and
remains clear.

The information you should have provided is this kind of data:


List of Computer Chips Made with Nanotechnology Prior to May 2004 :

Chips by Intel at this website:
http://appzone.intel.com/pressroom/PrintPressRelease.asp?file=http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quickreffam.htm#IIIMobile

My list of nanotechnologies after May 2004 and nanotechnologies of the
future is not a new question.  The question I asked remains
unanswered.  You made the choice to focus on issues not asked in my
question, e.g., the definition of molecule, nanomaterial, Moores law,
general info about nanotechnology, etc.  I am sorry you spent time
inefficiently researching topics related to my question.  But that was
your error not mine.  My question remains unanswered.

A generalized statement like this one you provided is specifically NOT
what I requested in my question, my question asks for a list of
specific products.  Besides, 150 microns is way larger than the
dimensions I am concerned with which are under one micron.

You wrote:

During the year 2003, chip manufacturing technologies, following the
Moore law, crossed the 150 micron trace thickness.  Different
manufacturers, Intel, AMD, .. for different categories of chips,
crossed this 2003 line at somewhat different times, but this march of
chip generations is not widely scattered.

To stay competitive, all manufactorers need to keep step with evolving
technology and so answer:

  during the  year 2003 --- track thickness decreased under 150 microns 

 is a reasonable non-technical answer to your 'before - after' 2004 question.

On the specific example of Intel CPU chip  we have shown how
successive generations come every 1 to 2 years and how the trace
thickness of trace is decreasing. Thickness of trace is just a 
general indicator of the progress being made. There are many
associated improvements in relevant technologies.



I include a copy of my prior communication to you explaining again why
you have not answered the question.

Hedgie,

I appreciate your prompt reply but this is a disaster. My question is
still not answered and the partial answer you have provided is not
sufficient to be useful at all.   I really need to know what the use
of nanotechnology and nanomaterials in electronic products dating
prior to May 2004 was.  Telling me that the answer is electronics is
not helpful, electronics was the category of the question.  Narrowing
this down to chips is a start.  Providing me with massive lists of all
chips is not helpful, I need specific info about the nanotechnology
used during the time period prior to May 2004, as opposed to chips
made from May 2004 on.  Explaining scientific principals is nice but
it is absolutely not what I need and it is not what I asked.  I am
working under an extreme time pressure.

The examples I provided in asking the question and clarifying it
indicate that I need to know more specific info about the use of
nanotehcnology in electronics prior to May 2004.  Here are quotes:

"Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.
Is this true and if so, can you provide more information on this, 
e.g, what kind of devices were made, what parts of them were 
nanoscale or nanomaterials?"

"Your Answer:

Please include the dates or the approximate dates that the commercial
products you find were available for the public to purchase and please
include how you know of this date.  Please note the size in nanometers
of the form or nanotechnology or nanomaterial used in each product you
find.  Please include all other information you know about each
product you find, but no need to search for additional product 
information.  Also, please cite all relevant sources that you find in 
your research, especially those you are relying on for your answer."

"Information I already have:
I do not have much.  A document dated 2001, said that standard lithography 
techniques routinely make devices on a scale of 0.14 micrometers or
about 130 nanometers.  Is this true and if so, what kind of devices
were made, what parts of them were nanoscale or nanomaterials?  If
this was used to make computers, would those have been the kind of
computers sold for people who are not scientists or technical
professionals to use or would they have been specialized computers for
medical use or space exploration?  Are these nanotech ?standard
lithography techniques? used for lots of different kinds of products?"

"As I mentioned, I need a thorough search done.  I do not need or
expect every commercial product found but I hope that you can find all
the categories of commercial products and all of the major examples
within each category.  I know you cannot guarantee to find ?all? but I
would like an exhaustive search done and a serious attempt to find all
which should enable you to find all categories and all major examples.

Here is a fictitious example that has no basis in fact.  If you find
that silicon nanowires were used to conduct electricity between parts
of computer chips in 2001 and there are tons of variations in their
design, provided all of the variations fit in to the category of
silicon nanowires used to conduct electricity between computer chips
parts in 2001, I do not need to know details of different variations
of these computer chips.  If a category of products can be narrowed
down further that is good, e.g., maybe the category is just silicon
nanowires used to conduct electricity between Intel brand computer
chips parts in 2001; or maybe the category is silicon nanowires used
to conduct electricity between certain specific kinds of parts in
computer chips in 2001.

In response to your comment:
2) With the computers - we really would include chip making only. Some
sub-micron methods were used prior to 2004. But we would not try to
list all consumer products which have chips. Would that be
satisfactory? Do you now what these microchips are?

Yes, I understand.  That would actually be great.  In your example
(which sounds real and not fictitious) the category would be something
like electronic products or devices made with microchips made prior to
may 2004 such as computers (maybe you can give one or two additional
kinds of product examples just to show the scope of the category). 
Then I need to know more specifically what the nanotechnology or
nanotechnologies used on the microchips prior to May 2004 was in order
to distinguish these microchips from other kinds made before and after
May 2004."

All of this was in the clarification of the quesiton.  I still need an answer! 

Jane

Request for Answer Clarification by jane_asks-ga on 25 Apr 2005 17:59 PDT
Well Hedgie,

Time is up tomorrow afternoon.  Its the absolute deadline for my
report of this matter.  After this time, I will no longer need the
information and so posting another question to get this one answered
serves no purpose.

The answer I have to the question I asked you which I can submit in my
report consists of this:

Products made using nanotechnology or nanomaterials prior to May 2004:
electronics with Intel chips listed at this website:
http://appzone.intel.com/pressroom/PrintPressRelease.asp?file=http://www.intel.com/pressroom/kits/quickreffam.htm#IIIMobile

You seem so bright I hoped that you would come through and answer the
question I asked.

Jane

Clarification of Answer by hedgie-ga on 25 Apr 2005 19:02 PDT
Correction of a typo

In the summary contained in my last clarification:

-----------\
during the  year 2003 --- track thickness decreased under 150 microns 

 is a reasonable non-technical answer to your 'before - after' 2004 question.

-----------/

is a typo.  It should read:

-----------\\
during the  year 2003 --- track thickness decreased under 150 nm (nanometers) 

 is a reasonable non-technical answer to your 'before - after' 2004 question.

---------//

Sorry about that.

Hedgie
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